shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 10, 2016 1:40:45 GMT -5
By the way, what's up with the faces on the cliffside? I've never understood that. Did I miss something somewhere, maybe back in Church & State I? As far as I can tell there was no setup for it, I just took it as a little self indulgence on Sim's part to add some atmosphere of foreboding to any panels featuring the cliff. I think they showed up at the same point that Gerhard came aboard. Might have just been his way of lending atmosphere to the book? That was the exact moment that prompted me to ask the above question, actually
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 10, 2016 8:52:51 GMT -5
But it's also clear that Sim is still winging this thing. What's with the reintroduction of Michelle and her ominous confession that everything she told Cerebus was a lie, promising to reveal a truth that gets abandoned/forgotten with the next issue? What was the point of ever bringing her back? I'll admit that my favorite of the issues I read tonight is the one where Cerebus just helps her with the chores while she talks about Weisshaupt. It's an ambitious way to move a comic forward, and it creates a sort of intimacy between Cerebus and Michelle again as he works to help with the mundane details of her private isolated world. Of course, there's a tragedy beneath all this -- their story is done, and thus there's more a sense of "what could have been" surrounding the two as they talk, even though we know there was no way these two ever would have worked out. Good analysis, shax. Tthere seems to be a lot of the author's own life transliterated in the comic, sometimes perhaps inadvertantly. Michelle's return, beyond the clunkiness of an "everything I told you is false" retcon (especially since it doesn't actually turn out to be the case) serves a few purposes, I think : first as a storytelling device allowing a lot of exposition regarding Weisshaupt; second as a way to give an important character a sendoff (I suspect that Dave might have had more important plans regarding Michelle initially, but have no information on the subject) and third... it shows one of the few really adult decisions made by characters in this series (a majority of them women, as it happens). Michelle decides that she will simply walk out of the game. She will no longer indulge the rules and strategies of others; she will not be forced to witness Weisshaupt or Cerebus's inevitable destruction. I never became adult enough to just walk out of a situation. I think it takes a lot of maturity to say "sod this, this internet conversation isn't going anywhere and I won't try to get the last word". The same goes, here, for the race to be present at the final ascension. Another character will pull that stunt in even more impressive fashion later in the series. What struck me upon re-reading Church and State II is how the contenders don't seem to understand just what is involved in the final ascension. The artist seems to think it will allow him to suck up to Tarim or Terim and obtain power and riches; Cirin seems to want it to finally prove that it is Terim and not Tarim who is God; Weisshaupt is going full Illuminati on us and Cerebus... Cerebus just wants it because others want it too, and it is in his nature to want "all of it. Whatever you have, Cerebus wants it all".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 11:45:02 GMT -5
(I suspect that Dave might have had more important plans regarding Michelle initially, but have no information on the subject) Agreed. I've always really liked Michelle (I own the original art for her first appearance), and it sure felt like she was going to be a more important character. Idle speculation - she might've been based on someone Sim was seeing at the time, but the relationship didn't work out?
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 11, 2016 4:08:19 GMT -5
Finished Church & State II not long ago. I'm probably going to need to let that stew for a while, but there is one thing I'd like to talk about now: I think I'm guilty of letting my knowledge of the real-life Dave Sim (and his Letters from the President statements) affect my opinion of what's happened in this book and I'm not sure whether that's a good thing. I can say with absolute certainty that The Judge's explanation of the Tarim/Terim story comes across as very strongly feminist upon first reading and that's at odds not only with my knowledge of Sim's rants later in the book but also with the impression I get of Sim with this Letter From The President from issue #96: imgur.com/2Rc4V0wThat came out a mere two issues after the complicated scene in #94 between Astoria and Cerebus. Dave Sim has in other LftP columns and on letter pages spoken, I thought, rather eloquently on the scene, not condoning Cerebus' actions and saying he believes them to have been wrong, being particularly excoriating about claims that Astoria may have been "asking for it" - which of course is echoed in the Tarim/Terim story, after which The Judge shows some pretty devastating contempt for Cerebus over that very incident. And yet, in the LftP that I just linked, Sim goes on a rant where he not only denies being a feminist, but describes himself as a "masculinist" and demonstrates some rather hefty disdain for women who are, in his opinion, presumptive and arrogant about their sexual appeal. I'll further point out that you could argue that Astoria bears some similarity to the woman in Sim's rant (attractive, aware of it), and this letter coming out very soon after the scene where she attempts to use her sexuality as a weapon (not for the first time) and it leads to her being raped initially presented to me a very different interpretation of that scene than the one that the ending to Church & State II did. But then, would I have had the same reaction had I not known about the kind of opinions Sim would let loose further down the line? Because, as I said, this is just one rant, not explicitly about that scene, and Sim's comments both in and out of the book that directly address it paint a very different picture. Maybe I'm overblowing this. I don't know. Sorry, I know I said earlier that I'd wait for other people to catch up but I wanted to get this off my chest. Itt's late and I hope this wasn't too rambly.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 11, 2016 9:31:28 GMT -5
I am so far behind you right now! Give me a few more days to catch up
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 11, 2016 12:01:38 GMT -5
There are other cases in which Sim's post-'masculinist' interpretation of a scene in Cerebus seems to directly conflict with his stated interpretation at the time, and I suspect this is one such situation.
There are numerous statements from Sim and from other characters which makes clear that Cerebus' behavior was wrong.
Even aside from that ... it takes a real genius, in my mind, to take a rape scene and make it funny. When you read it, Cerebus comes across like a puny little dog humping her leg, while Astoria seems superior morally and intellectually in every way. Moreover, there is no way at all that the portrayal is sexy or lascivious in the slightest. The reader identifies with Astoria in the scene, not Cerebus, and not as a leering voyeur.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 11, 2016 17:09:30 GMT -5
There are other cases in which Sim's post-'masculinist' interpretation of a scene in Cerebus seems to directly conflict with his stated interpretation at the time, and I suspect this is one such situation. There are numerous statements from Sim and from other characters which makes clear that Cerebus' behavior was wrong. Even aside from that ... it takes a real genius, in my mind, to take a rape scene and make it funny. When you read it, Cerebus comes across like a puny little dog humping her leg, while Astoria seems superior morally and intellectually in every way. Moreover, there is no way at all that the portrayal is sexy or lascivious in the slightest. The reader identifies with Astoria in the scene, not Cerebus, and not as a leering voyeur. Quite true, and the Judge makes it clear later that Cerebus's behaviour was totally inexcusable. I do not try to reconcile the contradictions between Dave's statements in the editorial section and the Cerebus story proper. I just appreciate the latter for what it is, and that's why I'm annoyed when people claim that Cerebus is a misogynistic comic. It is anything but. Whether it turned out that way with Dave's full awareness or because he depicts the world as it is and still believes that women are "a void" is beyond me, but I'm happy to enjoy the book for what it is and not what critics make it out to be. Michelle, Astoria, Jaka and Sofia all come across as far more decent and honourable than most of the male characters in the series, something I can't imagine possible in a truly misogyinistic work!
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 11, 2016 23:26:56 GMT -5
Michelle, Astoria, Jaka and Sofia all come across as far more decent and honourable than most of the male characters in the series, something I can't imagine possible in a truly misogyinistic work! This is what stands out most to me, and I don't know if your statement about people accusing Cerebus of being a misogynistic comic was aimed at me but if it was, I'm sorry it came across that way - the point was trying to make is that the comic itself is, at this point (this is my first read through) pretty unambiguously not misogynistic, and shows some pretty damn admirable feminist ideas in this volume. The Astoria incident and the backlash over it is shockingly ahead of its time I think. Taken entirely by itself, completely ignoring what I know of the author, the ending to Church & State II is totally, unashamedly anti-rape, anti-misogyny, heart-on-its-sleeve feminism. Which is why I find that bitter, angry and thoroughly anti-feminist rant so bizarre, it's like they were written by two different men with opposing viewpoints. EDIT: I took out the bit about being confused, because I don't think that's the right word for it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 12, 2016 6:47:23 GMT -5
Michelle, Astoria, Jaka and Sofia all come across as far more decent and honourable than most of the male characters in the series, something I can't imagine possible in a truly misogyinistic work! This is what stands out most to me, and I don't know if your statement about people accusing Cerebus of being a misogynistic comic was aimed at me (...) Not at all, not at all, and I apologize for letting you think that. It seems we share the same opinion on the subject. No, my comment was aimed at people who took great offence at Dave's editorial comments (starting with his " tangent" piece) and started saying that the comic itself was anti-woman. It is odd, but I suspect that the text pieces in Reads will shed some light on the matter. In those, Dave tells the story of a fictional writer whose creative career is derailed and stiffled by what is presented as a woman's influence, but is clearly due to the fictional writer's own lack of discipline and to his emotional dependence. I'm not saying that "Viktor Davies" is Dave Sim, but there seems to be in the fictional writer the same kind of disconnect between facts and perception that puzzles us in the real one.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 3, 2016 21:17:50 GMT -5
Still slacking here. I just finished Book Four (#81-89) tonight. I wasn't riveted. Loved how Cerebus got his position as Most Holy back again, but the rest felt confused and uneven -- sometimes too silly, sometimes striving too hard for depth and symbolish. I'm just not enjoying Sim as much as usual.
So it's going to take some pushing to get through the rest of this. I have so few memories of it from the first time around (other than the highly disturbing moment with Astoria), but I generally recall not enjoying it. I stopped reading Cerebus for a long while after this volume. It took me some time to give it another chance.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 28, 2016 19:39:44 GMT -5
Finished Church & State II not long ago. I'm probably going to need to let that stew for a while, but there is one thing I'd like to talk about now: I think I'm guilty of letting my knowledge of the real-life Dave Sim (and his Letters from the President statements) affect my opinion of what's happened in this book and I'm not sure whether that's a good thing. I can say with absolute certainty that The Judge's explanation of the Tarim/Terim story comes across as very strongly feminist upon first reading and that's at odds not only with my knowledge of Sim's rants later in the book but also with the impression I get of Sim with this Letter From The President from issue #96: imgur.com/2Rc4V0wThat came out a mere two issues after the complicated scene in #94 between Astoria and Cerebus. Dave Sim has in other LftP columns and on letter pages spoken, I thought, rather eloquently on the scene, not condoning Cerebus' actions and saying he believes them to have been wrong, being particularly excoriating about claims that Astoria may have been "asking for it" - which of course is echoed in the Tarim/Terim story, after which The Judge shows some pretty devastating contempt for Cerebus over that very incident. And yet, in the LftP that I just linked, Sim goes on a rant where he not only denies being a feminist, but describes himself as a "masculinist" and demonstrates some rather hefty disdain for women who are, in his opinion, presumptive and arrogant about their sexual appeal. I'll further point out that you could argue that Astoria bears some similarity to the woman in Sim's rant (attractive, aware of it), and this letter coming out very soon after the scene where she attempts to use her sexuality as a weapon (not for the first time) and it leads to her being raped initially presented to me a very different interpretation of that scene than the one that the ending to Church & State II did. But then, would I have had the same reaction had I not known about the kind of opinions Sim would let loose further down the line? Because, as I said, this is just one rant, not explicitly about that scene, and Sim's comments both in and out of the book that directly address it paint a very different picture. Maybe I'm overblowing this. I don't know. Sorry, I know I said earlier that I'd wait for other people to catch up but I wanted to get this off my chest. Itt's late and I hope this wasn't too rambly. No, I was thinking the same thing (and sorry it took me a month and a half to finally finish Church & State II!). But I'm rationalizing it as such: a lot of our conversations about Sim in this thread have led me to believe that the reason he often seems so contradictory is that he's more interested in pointing out the flaws in specific practices, beliefs, and other aspects of our culture than in promoting a specific bulletproof agenda that is without flaw. Astoria and the Judge are less promoting feminism and more mercilessly shooting holes through our masculine-dominated society and its attitudes. He'll open Cirin up to less merciless but similarly impassioned criticism once her gynocracy takes hold in the next volume. I think Sim enjoys pushing buttons, exposing flaws, revealing things wrong with ourselves (and, quite clearly, with his own protagonist who, at times, serves as a reflection of himself). I don't think he has the answers, and when he tries to find answers in the later volumes, you can almost feel him itching to tear apart his own ideas in those volumes. After all, Cerebus is the one who imparts them to the world, and look where that gets him in the end.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 28, 2016 19:47:06 GMT -5
What's standing out to me the most at this point, beyond the empirical fact that Sim and Gerhard have absolutely brought the art of sequential graphic storytelling to new heights here, is how pointless and unorganized so much of the plot that Sim has extensively labored over proves to be. At times earlier on, Sim would try to rub it in our faces that we weren't reading closely enough -- when did Cerebus' cold disappear? Where did Cerebus' "hat" go? But we get to The Judge explaining past history involving Suentes Po on the moon, and what does he do? He presents Cerebus' attention as waning and, when we miss out on these grand explanations, no indication is ever given that we missed anything important. It's like when the adults speak in a Charlie Brown animated special. Meaningless noise.
Consider, further, how many times characters have given us in-depth explanations that were or will later be revealed to have been lies? Astoria, Michelle, eventually this entire bit with The Judge and most of Jakka's Story too.
Sim just strikes me as the ultimate cynic, criticizing every ideology and attitude he can (especially his own), and then even knocking down every concept he tries to develop in this series. Cerebus, as a work, could have brilliantly charged in any given direction, but Sim knocks down his bridges almost as quickly as he builds them and so, while the series continues to be a brilliant presentation of some of the finest sequential graphic storytelling I've ever seen, I'm not sure it really ends up going anywhere.
The first time I read Cerebus through, I just figured I wasn't paying careful enough attention and understanding everything. Now I can clearly see that there is absolutely no reward for doing so.
Even the "something fell" bit...I'm not sure there's any real meaning there. Yes, the final thing to fall is Cerebus himself, but knowing that brings no further understanding to the line's manifestation in this and previous volumes.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 1, 2016 7:21:58 GMT -5
Happly October. Jaka's Story is now unlocked for discussion.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 1, 2016 8:12:14 GMT -5
What was the point of the ascension, I wonder?
Everyone is trying to be the first to make it to the moon, believing that it is an event of great importance; some hope to get power, some hope to get knowledge, some (Cerebus) just wants to be able to say "I beat you to it, losers". All turn out to have been wrong in their expectations, since the ascension apparently gives one little more than an opportunity to chat with The Judge (or Belinus two-tongues, depending on who you believe). And said judge reveals little of interest : the universe appeared, mankind appeared on Earth, and in the near future will destroy itself. Not that this is trivial, but it is nothing that we, readers, dodn't already know. As for the characters, what would they do with such information? Cirin would have said it was all a lie, Weisshaupt would have been mildly interested and concluded there was nothing useful for him in there, and Cerebus just didn't pay attention.
What was the point of orchestrating the ascension? I ask, because it was not a random event; it was something prepared in advance by hidden forces, something involving magic (for lack of a better word). Somebody went through a lot of effort to allow such a meeting to happen, but it is a meeting with no consequence.
Perhaps it's Cerebus's fault, though. Perhaps the Judge would have told Weisshaupt something more interesting... after all, he was the judge's favourite candidate. Perhaps the Judge was a victim of circumstances as much as everyone else, another pawn in the hands of a higher power. Which, in a metatextual context, is literally true: we know that the Judge is a pawn in the hands of the entity Cerebus will meet during the Final Ascension. I just don't think Dave had that in mind when he wrote "Walking on the Moon".
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 1, 2016 8:21:45 GMT -5
He was clearly making it up as he went. No way that guest appearance by The Flaming Carrot served any artistic purpose, after all.
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