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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2016 20:08:53 GMT -5
Another thing you mentioned.. while no SINGLE superhero title or trade does that well.. lots of superhero books sell in total... maybe it's just a matter of taking a look at is as 'DCU' and 'Marvel U' rather than 'Superman Vol. 2' After all, when considering if, say Game of Thrones or Walking Dead was mainstream, I'd consider all the volumes, since it's one property. Perhaps in looking at this, we should consider the Marvel and DC Superhero universes each a single property as well. Then that is a problem of the product because it costs a lot less to make a single book or tv series (say Game of Thrones) than it does a line of 50 comics to achieve the audience penetration and sales levels. Multiply production cost increases the price you need to charge to achieve profitability. It also ups the initial buy in by the customer to get into the story and thus creates an obstacle to gaining and growing your audience. Needing the entire line to achieve what 1 series does is one of the things that prevents Marvel and DC products from succeeding in the mainstream. If Marvel or DC could produce a big book of content each month featuring a wide variety of their characters-kind of like what Golden age books did, at an affordable price point, it would ease the buy in and obstacles to audience acceptance-just not with the core niche audience that already exists and won't accept the format or any change form what they have been getting for years. -M |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 5, 2016 20:49:33 GMT -5
If Marvel or DC could produce a big book of content each month featuring a wide variety of their characters-kind of like what Golden age books did, at an affordable price point, it would ease the buy in and obstacles to audience acceptance-just not with the core niche audience that already exists and won't accept the format or any change form what they have been getting for years. -M That's exactly what they are doing with superhero titles in most european countries if not all, and it remains a niche market there. There's also another elephant in the room : you have to aknowledge that most superhero titles are not originaly written for adults but for kids, and I believe the majority of mainstream audience still feel like that. I know that the current market is much different, that the "fanbase" is much older and more sophisticated, but... are we that sophisticated? Comics remain a form of youth entertainement at the core, and we mihgt very well all be a bunch of old children over here. Mainstream audiences seeking pure entertainemet have so many options now, and superhero comics are far from the most rewarding and amongst the most expensive. Also, the people who buy 18 millions Asterix's aren't buying books every month, only a small fraction of them. Which is why I belive the problem superhero comics face is a combination of distribution/pulishing and editorial in our current state of affairs. |
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 5, 2016 21:07:59 GMT -5
Oh good, now I'm an "albatross." At least I have the wingspan for it.  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 5, 2016 22:05:37 GMT -5
I think a big anthology title like Manga does would be great... I wonder if it would work? I commented about that somewhere (maybe the crossgen thread)... would people pay for say 1 issue each of Superman, Batman, Justice League, and 3 others for like $10? $6?
What's SHonen Jump cost off the newsstand, and how well does that sell?
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 5, 2016 22:09:02 GMT -5
I think a big anthology title like Manga does would be great... I wonder if it would work? I commented about that somewhere (maybe the crossgen thread)... would people pay for say 1 issue each of Superman, Batman, Justice League, and 3 others for like $10? $6? Again, that is exactly how US superhero comics are sold in France and most of Europe, available at almost every single press office, and it still is not a great market : TPBs and GN are outselling those by a hefty margin. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 5, 2016 22:15:20 GMT -5
Yeah, but it could just be that the European Market isn't into American Superheroes, regardless of format.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 5, 2016 22:30:59 GMT -5
Yeah, but it could just be that the European Market isn't into American Superheroes, regardless of format. Well, the superhero movies are doing fine there as well. And the superhero comics aren't doing worse than in the states, maybe the opposite actualy, it's just that it remains a niche market compared to more mainstream type of comics (there, I said it, and it felt soooo natural, hahaha), whatever the format they are packaged in. Charles Burns sell more books in France then X-Men. But again, it might just be very well be that our culture isn't going towards reading more books or comics, and the few who still do can only take that much of superhero comics. If you only read superhero comics, there sure are an ocean of differences between a spiderman comic and a batman one. But if you mostly read Tom Clancy, Victor Hugo or Paul Auster, I guess it can soon seem like same same... |
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 6, 2016 5:13:08 GMT -5
You're not counting the MANY subsequent re-prints of #1 (it charted for months) or the trade (which is a better comparison to Asterix anyway)... I'm not sure if that counts copies sold by Disney stores (I know they sell it at all the gift shops at tourist spots)... I've even seen Star Wars comics at Dollar Tree and Five below. If anything Marvel and DC put out is Mainstream, it's Star Wars. Then there's libraries. Libraries can by the Asterix book. They wait for the trades (often the Hard Covers) for Star Wars. That's ALOT of sales, I'd think. Anyway, a couple things: I think the biggest problem with single issues these days is price. You don't get alot of entertainment for your $3.99. If they were $2, they'd sell more. Obviously, the marketing types feel that $3.99 and selling 50K copies is more profitable then selling them for $1.99 and perhaps selling more. Then there's the availability thing. I would love to see someone print a cheap newsprint comic to retail for $1.99 (or even $1.50) and see if it works in grocery stores and Walmart. Marvel did the .99 titles WAY back but they didn't reach the alternate distribution channels. I think trades are also seen as less 'nerdy' than a comic, for whatever reason. Then there's the 'getting a whole story' thing, which some people get upset about. My wife will rarely read comics, because she HATES cliffhangers. I think if you want more casual buys, you need to have more one-and-done stories. Plus, there's the PERCEPTION that buying even 1 comic is a long term commitment. Buying a little golden book or early reader for $3.99 is a one time buy.. buying Spiderman #1 implies you're going to buy the kid more, you know? To counter, there will be lots of reprints of Asterix and it will remain in print and selling far longer than Star Wars #1 or even the first volumes of the Star Wars trade, and it will also sell in the American, Asian, African, Australian, etc. markets as well. -M Star Wars is one of the few comics that is getting translated all over the world though, so those markets probably have their own licensed reprints that you won't see on Diamond. (this is the product catalogus for Dark Dragon, which is a dutch company that reprints a lot of American licensed comics over here. issuu.com/darkdragonbooks/docs/dark_dragon_books_catalogus_2016-1_/1You see that Star Wars makes up a lot of their catalog for the first half of this year.) |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 9:33:44 GMT -5
Yes, it sure does. But Star Wars is its own thing, and the original topic whether superhero comics are still a mainstream product.
I guess Star Wars comics have been available worldwide far beyond any kind of direct market for quite a while now, so they surely are mainstream in a way, even if I guess they also can be considered niche as they specifically talk to Star Wars fans : I can't imagine too many people having never watched a star wars movie buying Star Wars comics...
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 10:48:29 GMT -5
If Marvel or DC could produce a big book of content each month featuring a wide variety of their characters-kind of like what Golden age books did, at an affordable price point, it would ease the buy in and obstacles to audience acceptance-just not with the core niche audience that already exists and won't accept the format or any change form what they have been getting for years. -M That's exactly what they are doing with superhero titles in most european countries if not all, and it remains a niche market there. There's also another elephant in the room : you have to aknowledge that most superhero titles are not originaly written for adults but for kids, and I believe the majority of mainstream audience still feel like that. I know that the current market is much different, that the "fanbase" is much older and more sophisticated, but... are we that sophisticated? Comics remain a form of youth entertainement at the core, and we mihgt very well all be a bunch of old children over here. Mainstream audiences seeking pure entertainemet have so many options now, and superhero comics are far from the most rewarding and amongst the most expensive. Also, the people who buy 18 millions Asterix's aren't buying books every month, only a small fraction of them. Which is why I belive the problem superhero comics face is a combination of distribution/pulishing and editorial in our current state of affairs. Except that isn't true, DC out sold every other publisher on the book scan, had more titles in the top 750 and more dollars earned...which is why I keep scratching my head over this as even if we look at the broader context of American Pop Culture audience superheroes are still selling better than other groups so the question of, "Are they mainstream?" is a moot one. That the individual issues don't sell to that audience doesn't mean that superhero comic books aren't mainstream, it just means that in that particular audience that format doesn't work for them, which again is a separate conversation that has no bearing on whether or not super hero comics are mainstream. The topic on format is important, and I do think that in the future we'll see that change as the companies involved attempt to receive greater profits, but it's a gradual change as by and large the companies involved seem to be okay with the profits they are currently seeing. And there is indeed change, even if we just look back even ten years ago as back then the window between when a story finished in single issues and when it was reprinted in a collection was longer than it is now. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 11:43:17 GMT -5
I think you keep connecting two separate things, superheroes and superheroe comic books. I'm indeed saying that when superheroes in cross-media have become mainstream, super hero comic books in their current format (the physical product) aren't mainstream anymore, as the global numbers show (it is a global world).
And sorry but if you look at what current JLA, Avengers or Spiderman comics have to offer, if you really believe that those have appeal to mainstream audiences, I think we must be talking about vastly different things. I'm not saying those comics are bad or can't hold interest for me or you, but we've been reading comics for so many years, and we are fully aware that the editors manufacture their products towards people like us, at least their flagships.
Again, when I lend comics to friends, if it is a superhero comic, I have to convince them more then if it was Criminal, Bone or The Incal, and furthermore, if I manage to convince them, I still most of the time have to give them context, because that's where 98% of current superhero comic books are, whether we like it or not.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 11:54:57 GMT -5
I think you keep connecting two separate things, superheroes and superheroe comic books. I'm indeed saying that when superheroes in cross-media have become mainstream, super hero comic books in their current format (the physical product) aren't mainstream anymore, as the global numbers show (it is a global world). And sorry but if you look at what current JLA, Avengers or Spiderman comics have to offer, if you really believe that those have appeal to mainstream audiences, I think we must be talking about vastly different things. I'm not saying those comics are bad or can't hold interest for me or you, but we've been reading comics for so many years, and we are fully aware that the editors manufacture their products towards people like us, at least their flagships. Again, when I lend comics to friends, if it is a superhero comic, I have to convince them more then if it was Criminal, Bone or The Incal, and furthermore, if I manage to convince them, I still most of the time have to give them context, because that's where 98% of current superhero comic books are, whether we like it or not. I'm not confusing anything, bookscan track sales of books in the US from many prominent retailers and every year Brian Hibbs( a trusted source in the comics community) does a run down of comic sales outside the direct market and in the most recent review(2014) DC's sales in common outlets like Barnes and Noble and Walmart are much higher than other publishers so DC's books obviously have appeal with average buyer, and that hard sales data trumps your own anecdotal experiences. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 12:09:49 GMT -5
I think you are a little :
First of all, and again, I'm talking global, not US.
Second of all, do these numbers break down categories of DC books? Because it's been common knowledge that Vertigo collections and such have been the driving force of the DC library outside the direct market, not superherobooks. Outside of frank Miller and Alan Moore superhero books, it's mostly about Sandman, Fables, Transmet, Preacher, Y The Last Man, etc
Or has this changed?
Also, so I understand you correctly, when this B.Hibbs analysis says DC sells more then other publishers, what does that mean? Any other publishers? More then books?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 6, 2016 12:14:34 GMT -5
Not all DC sales are superheroes, though... in fact, I'd guess the majority are not. Stuff like Sandman, Fables, Preacher, DMS, Y the last man, etc are all regular sellers and all not superheroes.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 6, 2016 12:40:36 GMT -5
I think you are a little : First of all, and again, I'm talking global, not US. Here in the UK, "mainstream" would logically be the comics on sale in high street newsagents, convenience stores and supermarkets. Until about 25 years ago, that would have included imported American comics, mostly Marvel and DC, but that is no longer the case-they are now a niche product available only in specialist comic shops, of which there were less than 70 in the entire UK the last time I checked. "Mainstream" titles, those available to anyone in any town, would include 2000 AD and its companion title The Judge Dredd Megazine, DC Thomson & Co.'s Beano and Commando, Titan's Doctor Who titles, a few licensed reprint books of Marvel and DC material published by Titan and Panini, and a surprisingly huge number of licensed titles based on animated series' and toys, mostly aimed at younger readers. All of these are far more visible and probably considerably better selling than anything available in the comic shops. Aside from those few licensed reprint books I mentioned, superheroes are not really "mainstream" here. |
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