shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 10:14:36 GMT -5
Skeets was a pretty significant character in Booster's original solo title, right to the end. But as far as I can recall, absolutely nothing from that book was ever referenced in the Justice League book, even though the JLI guest starred in Booster Gold more than once. Same with Blue Beetle. No attempt whatsoever was made to reflect events in any member's solo title, and none of their regular supporting cast were ever featured. Makes sense if the intent was to make the new Justice League a "jumping-on" point, just as the title doesn't get heavily into the previous League's story because that would be prohibitive to the majority of readers that, frankly, weren't reading that title before the reset. And really, after Legends, none of Batman's continuity is referenced either. Where the heck is Jason Todd while Batman's hanging with this team? Batman seems to be spending all of his time here.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 2, 2016 10:41:31 GMT -5
Skeets was a pretty significant character in Booster's original solo title, right to the end. But as far as I can recall, absolutely nothing from that book was ever referenced in the Justice League book, even though the JLI guest starred in Booster Gold more than once. Same with Blue Beetle. No attempt whatsoever was made to reflect events in any member's solo title, and none of their regular supporting cast were ever featured. Makes sense if the intent was to make the new Justice League a "jumping-on" point, just as the title doesn't get heavily into the previous League's story because that would be prohibitive to the majority of readers that, frankly, weren't reading that title before the reset. And really, after Legends, none of Batman's continuity is referenced either. Where the heck is Jason Todd while Batman's hanging with this team? Batman seems to be spending all of his time here. Well, since you ask-at the time this series started (May 1987) Jason Todd was appearing in a multi-part storyline over in New Teen Titans (along with the Flash).
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 10:45:27 GMT -5
Makes sense if the intent was to make the new Justice League a "jumping-on" point, just as the title doesn't get heavily into the previous League's story because that would be prohibitive to the majority of readers that, frankly, weren't reading that title before the reset. And really, after Legends, none of Batman's continuity is referenced either. Where the heck is Jason Todd while Batman's hanging with this team? Batman seems to be spending all of his time here. Well, since you ask-at the time this series started (May 1987) Jason Todd was appearing in a multi-part storyline over in New Teen Titans (along with the Flash). While, at the same time, Detective Comics had him alongside Batman and several years younger than he was in the Titans or in the core Batman title. Continuity was really out the window with Batman at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 12:03:44 GMT -5
Skeets was a pretty significant character in Booster's original solo title, right to the end. But as far as I can recall, absolutely nothing from that book was ever referenced in the Justice League book, even though the JLI guest starred in Booster Gold more than once. Same with Blue Beetle. No attempt whatsoever was made to reflect events in any member's solo title, and none of their regular supporting cast were ever featured. I totally agree with you and guess what that character from Booster Gold made my 50 Supporting Characters Thread that I will be starting in 1-2 weeks from now. I love this character from the day that I read Blue Beetle and Booster Gold team-ups!
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Post by JKCarrier on Jan 2, 2016 13:02:00 GMT -5
From a creative point of view, I suppose that Skeets' primary function was to give Booster a straight-man to play off of. In the context of a team setting, you really don't need that. I wonder, too, how well the Booster solo title was faring. Perhaps Giffen felt he had an opportunity to redefine a character folks generally weren't familiar with? I doubt it was that well-thought-out. Given the editorial chaos at DC in the wake of Crisis, along with the JL creative team generally not giving a hoot about continuity or history, I imagine the meeting went something like this: Keith Giffen: Ok, we need someone to be Max Lord's mole in the League. Who's available? Mike Gold (consulting a memo with many names scratched out and others penciled in): Um...here's one. Booster Gold. Giffen: Who the eff is Booster Gold? Mike (squinting): It says here he's from the future. He's got a flight ring and a force field belt. Keith: Ok, I can work with that. Time for lunch! (zips out the door) Mike: Wait, it also says he has a robot side...eh, never mind. Wait for me!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 13:07:34 GMT -5
From a creative point of view, I suppose that Skeets' primary function was to give Booster a straight-man to play off of. In the context of a team setting, you really don't need that. I wonder, too, how well the Booster solo title was faring. Perhaps Giffen felt he had an opportunity to redefine a character folks generally weren't familiar with? I doubt it was that well-thought-out. Given the editorial chaos at DC in the wake of Crisis, along with the JL creative team generally not giving a hoot about continuity or history, I imagine the meeting went something like this: Keith Giffen: Ok, we need someone to be Max Lord's mole in the League. Who's available? Mike Gold (consulting a memo with many names scratched out and others penciled in): Um...here's one. Booster Gold. Giffen: Who the eff is Booster Gold? Mike (squinting): It says here he's from the future. He's got a flight ring and a force field belt. Keith: Ok, I can work with that. Time for lunch! (zips out the door) Mike: Wait, it also says he has a robot side...eh, never mind. Wait for me! It's tempting to see it that way, and the cast of characters was certainly rotating quickly enough to justify that interpretation, but Booster is the first character that Giffen truly seems excited about. He gives the entire issue over to Booster's introduction. I have to assume he therefore had some interest in the property.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 2, 2016 17:55:04 GMT -5
I doubt it was that well-thought-out. Given the editorial chaos at DC in the wake of Crisis, along with the JL creative team generally not giving a hoot about continuity or history, I imagine the meeting went something like this: Keith Giffen: Ok, we need someone to be Max Lord's mole in the League. Who's available? Mike Gold (consulting a memo with many names scratched out and others penciled in): Um...here's one. Booster Gold. Giffen: Who the eff is Booster Gold? Mike (squinting): It says here he's from the future. He's got a flight ring and a force field belt. Keith: Ok, I can work with that. Time for lunch! (zips out the door) Mike: Wait, it also says he has a robot side...eh, never mind. Wait for me! It's tempting to see it that way, and the cast of characters was certainly rotating quickly enough to justify that interpretation, but Booster is the first character that Giffen truly seems excited about. He gives the entire issue over to Booster's introduction. I have to assume he therefore had some interest in the property. So I went back and re-read Booster Gold #1 just for fun tonight, and I was surprised to see just how much JL #4 borrows from that issue. DeMatteis seems to lift a few of Booster's lamer gags directly out of that story, we see that the only thing Booster seems to care about beyond fame and money is membership in the Justice League (a sentiment explicitly echoed in JL #4), and even the brilliant strategy he works out with Skeets to take down the bad guy by the end is closely paralleled by the last minute plan he works out with Blue Beetle in JL #4. It could all be coincidence, but it really looks like they took some care in how they approached Booster Gold. Thus, I suspect the omission of Skeets was deliberate, maybe because it would make Booster too insular and unlikely to talk to other members of the group.
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Post by realjla on Jan 2, 2016 18:06:22 GMT -5
Skeets and Booster reminded me a bit of KITT and Michael Knight...a REALLY low-budget "Knight Rider". Like maybe if KITT had been destroyed, except for some random part, which could talk...and fly. Maybe that worked in Booster's own book, but the JL didn't really need a floating muffler that sounded like William Daniels. Perhaps JL Atlantis?
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 2, 2016 19:03:19 GMT -5
It's clear by this point that the Justice League roster was still very much in flux for Helfer and Giffen. I'm still hoping Action Ace's painstaking retyping of the old Helfer introductory material for the first trade paperback edition will provide some insight as to the reasons they took on the characters they did -- a true mishmash from the DCU that didn't entirely seem to be their choosing, but it's at least safe to say decisions and deals were still being made behind the scenes. And thus, out of the blue, we lose Dr. Light before she ever even got a chance to don her costume. All that's left is the creator introductions, which you've already reproduced. There is nothing more to add on how this set of characters got together, other than what may be ahead in the comics' letter columns. But, they're not worried. They have a plan... the super-hero club. If they can just find enough heroes that fit, they can easily dismiss the ones that don't. COMMENTS ON ISSUE #4 I didn't even know Booster had his own comic when I read this issue. They did a good job of making me like Booster and he's got a nice middleweight power set. I'm with Captain Marvel in liking the costume. The creative team's straw clutching, nets them a very useful straw that will pay dividends for years. Needless to say, the Blue & Gold team (sort of making their debut here) of the JLI defined the characters for much of DC fandom a lot more than their solo series of the 1980s. Dr. Light come back! Don't stick me with Fire and Ice! Batman admits, "But I'm not a reasonable man." Guy with the "bat ears" in the dark is my favorite gag of the issue. I will love The Royal Flush Gang forever and ever and ever.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 19:54:32 GMT -5
Skeets and Booster reminded me a bit of KITT and Michael Knight...a REALLY low-budget "Knight Rider". Like maybe if KITT had been destroyed, except for some random part, which could talk...and fly. Maybe that worked in Booster's own book, but the JL didn't really need a floating muffler that sounded like William Daniels. Perhaps JL Atlantis? Interesting Observation ... kinda makes me wonder about what you said here!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 3, 2016 20:36:18 GMT -5
Justice League #5 "Gray Life, Gray Dreams" plot and breakdowns: Keith Giffen script: J.M. DeMatteis pencils: Kevin Maguire inks: Al Gordon letters: Bob Lappan colors: Gene D'Angelo editor: Andy Helfer grade: B+ Here are the three pages you've waited through ten reviews to see... Such a small moment in an issue that is otherwise unrelated to it, and yet it's the moment everyone remembers when you mention the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League. You could even argue it's the most iconic moment of the entire Post-Crisis DCU. Really, there's The Joker repeatedly beating Jason Todd with a crowbar, and there's Superman filming a homemade porn with Big Barda, but what other moment in a Post-Crisis DC title does everyone remember, not for being shocking or just plain awful, but for being awesome? And you can take it further than that. Earlier in this thread, spoon commented that: My DC area of expertise from this era is Green Lantern. Guy Gardner danced on the boundary between anti-hero and villain in his appearance in GL/GLC over the prior year. Honestly, a lot of times he came across as an outright villain. It's interesting that he's viewed as a pain, but not to the degree of suspicion his past actions should bring. And so I believe it was this moment that permanently cemented comicdom's perception of who Guy Gardner was. Ever since September of 1987, regardless of what titles they've followed, comic fans have understood that Guy Gardner is the obnoxious jerk you just want to punch; not someone teetering on the boundaries of becoming an outright villain. The same can be said for Batman, who's characterization was all over the place at this point in the Bat Office. This is not Miller's Batman, possessing neither the introspection of Year One nor the sheer joy of violence from DKR, and this certainly doesn't match anything Mike W. Barr or Max Collins was writing at the time. This is a very different Batman we haven't seen before, more powerful in his inaction, commanding fear and respect simply by being in the room, and yet able to move swiftly and with seemingly little effort to justify that reputation when it is challenged. That emphasis upon image is certainly suggested by Year One, but never played out to this extent. And really, it's largely the interpretation that has caught on in the modern day -- Batman with a total badass reputation. But even more than what this moment did for Guy and for Batman, this thread must concern itself with what the "one-punch" did for the League as a franchise. While the title had been full of fun and funny moments previously, it also strived to tackle some very serious themes that no one seems to recall in hindsight. Issues #2-4 could never have earned the informal label "The Bwa-Ha-Ha League" in their own rite. So, on the one hand, the "one-punch" left a lasting impression on the fandom that this title was primarily funny and irreverent. On the other, all of the reaction to this moment might also have steered Helfer and Giffen more towards the lighthearted and irreverent -- going where the acclaim was. After all, Justice League hadn't been a successful, fan-favorite title for many years now, and both Helfer and Giffen were desperate to change that. But yeah, when you go back and read it, the rest of this issue is very dark, the "one-punch" moment utilized largely to lighten the tension. As for the plot itself, I can't say I'm too intrigued by the whole Gray Man conflict. It really does seem out of the League's...well...league. Where's Phantom Stranger to handle an issue like this? It is interesting, though, to see Giffen wandering so thoughtfully into the world of the occult and really developing the characters and governance of that realm in the DCU. This was fifteen months before Neil Gaiman would introduce Morpheus and the realm of The Dreaming in the pages of Sandman. On the other hand, the final portion of this issue was a bit frustrating to me because I felt I was supposed to have some understanding of who The Creeper is, and I don't. I know that's who Jack Ryder is (and yes, I got the joke two issues back when Maxwell Lord had him filed under "C"), but that's really all I know. I hope Giffen and DeMatteis will make him more accessible to the reader next issue. Important Details:- Oberon's back. - Dr. Fate summons the team but is never actually in the same room with them. - Some foreshadowing that both Mister Miracle and Captain Marvel are unsure they belong on this team -Whereas Legends went out of its way to convince us that Captain Marvel had a longstanding reputation among DC's top tier heroes, this issue explicitly conveys the opposite, perhaps reflecting whatever was now being established in the Shazam: A New Beginning limited series. Minor Details:- Ever since reading the second part of Helfer's introduction to the League I've been watching more carefully for what DeMatteis adds to Giffen's stories and breakdowns. It's often difficult to tell when DeMatteis' scripts are adding something amazingly fresh or are just reflecting what was already there in the breakdowns or in Maguire's finished art (and there's so much humor and characterization to be found there!), but here's a glaring example of DeMatteis' genius as he inserts a whole other level of comedy to the scene playing out, bringing Captain Marvel into it where he was clearly intended to be nothing more than an on-looker in this scene. That's all DeMatteis. Plot synopsis:
Dr. Fate confronts The Gray Man (last seen in issue #2), who reveals his origin and informs Fate that he will use his legion of clones to rob the world of its dreams, Jack Ryder gets word of Dr. Fate's location and decides to go there to take down The League, Batman punches Guy Gardner into submission, Dr. Fate summons the League, they figure out they have fifty two hours before The Gray Men have affected the entire world population, they arrive where The Gray Men are, meet The Creeper, and they see that the town they have come to rescue has been completely transformed somehow.
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Post by spoon on Jan 3, 2016 22:19:19 GMT -5
Justice League #4 "Winning Hand" plot and breakdowns: Keith Giffen script: J.M. DeMatteis pencils: Kevin Maguire inks: Al Gordon letters: Bob Lappan colors: Gene D'Angelo editor: Andrew Helfer grade: A- It's clear by this point that the Justice League roster was still very much in flux for Helfer and Giffen. I'm still hoping Action Ace's painstaking retyping of the old Helfer introductory material for the first trade paperback edition will provide some insight as to the reasons they took on the characters they did -- a true mishmash from the DCU that didn't entirely seem to be their choosing, but it's at least safe to say decisions and deals were still being made behind the scenes. And thus, out of the blue, we lose Dr. Light before she ever even got a chance to don her costume. She's gone before she's ever given a chance to earn a presence in the title. Beyond being the excuse the League needed to be summoned to the United Nations in the first issue (and really, that was Lord pulling the strings anyway), she did nothing in these first four issues that couldn't have been done by someone else. So I can presume either that this was a last second decision (either because Giffen or Helfer really didn't want her or because someone else did), or that there was a purpose in having her stick around for three issues, only to quit at the beginning of the fourth. Maybe the entire point of this was to get Maxwell Lord's reaction where he states "She had to leave. But she'll be back -- if you want her back. She's not really that important, after all." Perhaps it was necessary to give Max an opportunity to show just how little regard he has for the lives he's manipulating. Of course, that also undermines this sense we've been given about Max for three issues now that he's all-knowing, all-powerful and, well, Lord-like. He really comes off completely unprepared both for Dr. Light's reaction and for The League's in this issue. [snip] - Maxwell Lord has a master plan for the team of which Booster Gold is at least partially aware. Yeah, I really agree with you regarding Dr. Light. I wish they would've kept her around. I wonder if the quick exit was always the intention or whether there was a change of plans for some reason. Lord's remark that he could bring Dr. Light back if she's needed seems to portend a return, but maybe that was just a planned fake-out. Sometimes writers like to get rid of character who seems like they're going to be a regular to show that anything can happen (like the death of Thunderbird in X-Men). However, in most cases, I'd rather not see the build-up wasted. It's more irksome because Dr. Light was a fairly new character who hadn't been put to much use. Maybe it would've been better to use a long-time D-lister rather than knock the legs out from under a new character. Another reason it's bothersome is because Dr. Light is the only non-white character (except for the Martian) and one of only two women. I read somewhere that one of the early plans for Crisis was to create more diversity in the DCU by rebooting several white male characters as minorities and/or women. Somewhere, that got abandoned, but I think Dr. Light was a remnant of that plan. I'm not sure if Booster Gold is aware of Max's plan, other than what we see. Max announces he has a plan while Light and Booster are in the room. Then, Booster just repeats that when Max gets on his nerves. I think the art really comes into its own in this issue. The flow and panel progressions are very good. Things are very well put together in both the talky scenes (like the library) and the action scenes. The fight with the Royal Flush Gang is probably the best so far. There are some really creative panels, like Guy doing mocking bat ears in the all-blue panel. Another clever one transitioning from Ten standing to on the ground with the "Bopp" panel effectively censoring Booster punching her out.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 4, 2016 2:28:23 GMT -5
Just a minor correction to something said above: the Captain Marvel limited series that was underway at this point was not The Power of Shazam but Shazam: A New Beginning, the first post-Crisis reboot of the character's origin. That series was effectively continued in the Captain's short lived solo feature in Action Comics Weekly, but in 1994 The Power of Shazam graphic novel rebooted Cap's origin again and basically removed both New Beginning and the Action Comics stories from continuity.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 4, 2016 5:01:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I really agree with you regarding Dr. Light. I wish they would've kept her around. I wonder if the quick exit was always the intention or whether there was a change of plans for some reason. Lord's remark that he could bring Dr. Light back if she's needed seems to portend a return, but maybe that was just a planned fake-out. Sometimes writers like to get rid of character who seems like they're going to be a regular to show that anything can happen (like the death of Thunderbird in X-Men). Yes, I immediately thought of Thunderbird when this happened. Yes, and whether she ended up in The League by Giffen's choice or because someone told him he had to use this new character that wasn't doing anything else in the DCU after her debut in Crisis (actually, did she get used anywhere outside of the pages of Justice League during this era?), it seems that the purpose behind utilizing her was to give the team that international angle. Of course, we're going there anyway with Rocket Red pretty shortly. I'm just left wondering whether this was Giffen's thinking or just Maxwell Lord's. Did Giffen see some other value in the character that Lord did not? He swears up and down in the next issue that he doesn't know anything else. I've been dazzled with the art since the first issue, but I won't debate that those were great moments.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 4, 2016 5:02:12 GMT -5
Just a minor correction to something said above: the Captain Marvel limited series that was underway at this point was not The Power of Shazam but Shazam: A New Beginning, the first post-Crisis reboot of the character's origin. That series was effectively continued in the Captain's short lived solo feature in Action Comics Weekly, but in 1994 The Power of Shazam graphic novel rebooted Cap's origin again and basically removed both New Beginning and the Action Comics stories from continuity. Thanks for this!
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