shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2016 7:36:56 GMT -5
There were 5 years between the last issue of B&B being published and issue 13 of JLI dealing with Nemesis. That's alifetime for a comic reader in the 80s. There were a lot of readers coming into DC at the time because of the DC Renaissance and the post-Crisis resurgence in sales, so I don't think it's a safe bet to assume readers of JLI in 1988 were familiar with stories being published in Brave & the Bold in 1981-1982 (which is when most of the Nemesis stuff was produced). Hardcore fans maybe, but hardcore fans then were not the rule, but more of an exception, so I don't think you can assume Batman fans of 1988 would have been B&B readers 6-7 years earlier. -M Well, I can only really look at it from my own perspective, and I was a Batman reader in '88 who'd been a B&B reader seven years earlier, as were the few friends of mine at the time who read comics. OK, we probably were hardcore fans, but then, since we knew no non hardcore fans, such an assumption would probably have made perfect sense to us. I got into comics in '89 and was a hardcore Batman fan. I was aware of Brave & the Bold but always just sort of assumed it bore no weight upon current continuity. Same with World's Finest, or even DC Comics Presents for Superman. |
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2016 8:58:52 GMT -5
Well, I can only really look at it from my own perspective, and I was a Batman reader in '88 who'd been a B&B reader seven years earlier, as were the few friends of mine at the time who read comics. OK, we probably were hardcore fans, but then, since we knew no non hardcore fans, such an assumption would probably have made perfect sense to us. I got into comics in '89 and was a hardcore Batman fan. I was aware of Brave & the Bold but always just sort of assumed it bore no weight upon current continuity. Same with World's Finest, or even DC Comics Presents for Superman. Ah. I really got into both DC and Marvel in the mid-late 70s when both companies, particularly Marvel, had fairly tight continuity across most of their respective lines, so by the eighties I was automatically assuming that all past continuity was always relevant unless specifically specified not to be. I've always had that mindset. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2016 9:36:06 GMT -5
I got into comics in '89 and was a hardcore Batman fan. I was aware of Brave & the Bold but always just sort of assumed it bore no weight upon current continuity. Same with World's Finest, or even DC Comics Presents for Superman. Ah. I really got into both DC and Marvel in the mid-late 70s when both companies, particularly Marvel, had fairly tight continuity across most of their respective lines, so by the eighties I was automatically assuming that all past continuity was always relevant unless specifically specified not to be. I've always had that mindset. Well, in 1989, Batman had three titles (two of which frequently went to bi-weekly publishing), an onslaught of graphic novel one-shots, and guest appearances everywhere. It was pretty much impossible to keep up with all of that and still have the time/money to scour five year old back issues (if you were even lucky enough to find an LCS that had them -- mine didn't). I envy your growing up when you did. If you were a kid in the late 1980s, collecting comics was a lot more expensive and confusing. |
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2016 11:30:11 GMT -5
Ah. I really got into both DC and Marvel in the mid-late 70s when both companies, particularly Marvel, had fairly tight continuity across most of their respective lines, so by the eighties I was automatically assuming that all past continuity was always relevant unless specifically specified not to be. I've always had that mindset. Well, in 1989, Batman had three titles (two of which frequently went to bi-weekly publishing), an onslaught of graphic novel one-shots, and guest appearances everywhere. It was pretty much impossible to keep up with all of that and still have the time/money to scour five year old back issues (if you were even lucky enough to find an LCS that had them -- mine didn't). I envy your growing up when you did. If you were a kid in the late 1980s, collecting comics was a lot more expensive and confusing. In 1989 I was dividing my time between Portsmouth, where I was living and working at the time, and south London, where my parents lived. Portsmouth had two comic shops at the time, one of which had a huge selection of back issues, and there were another three within a short bus ride from my mother's place, plus several more in central London, which I visited pretty regularly. There were also still plenty of comics in the high street newsagents. For a comics fan in Britain, the 80s were a very good time, I'd say. But in terms of actual creativity, I still think the peak was about 1983. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2016 11:37:36 GMT -5
Well, in 1989, Batman had three titles (two of which frequently went to bi-weekly publishing), an onslaught of graphic novel one-shots, and guest appearances everywhere. It was pretty much impossible to keep up with all of that and still have the time/money to scour five year old back issues (if you were even lucky enough to find an LCS that had them -- mine didn't). I envy your growing up when you did. If you were a kid in the late 1980s, collecting comics was a lot more expensive and confusing. In 1989 I was dividing my time between Portsmouth, where I was living and working at the time, and south London, where my parents lived. Portsmouth had two comic shops at the time, one of which had a huge selection of back issues, and there were another three within a short bus ride from my mother's place, plus several more in central London, which I visited pretty regularly. There were also still plenty of comics in the high street newsagents. For a comics fan in Britain, the 80s were a very good time, I'd say. But in terms of actual creativity, I still think the peak was about 1983. Local comic shops came late to the part of Long Island, NY that I grew up in. There was one about twenty minutes from me that had been there for some years and had an extensive back issue inventory, but most of the rest were first arriving between 1988 and 1994, and (not surprisingly) all of those late comers are gone today. I was nine at the time, so getting to an LCS depended either upon the generosity of my single mother (infrequent, to be sure) or my being able to walk there. There was one that was only a mile and a half away, so I walked there all the time and had my pull list there. Unfortunately, their back issue inventory consisted of maybe twelve long boxes just sitting on the floor. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 26, 2016 12:08:13 GMT -5
RE: Batman's interest. He wasn't just interested in Nemesis, but was also concerned about the existence of Suicide Squad in general He had cameos in a couple issues where he tried to get Amanda Waller to admit it's existence, and promised to expose them.. that might be the missing piece as to why Batman was so concerned. In the Suicide Squad issues, it's the squad much more than Batman that are worried about Nemesis.
Re: Back issues.. when I first started my pull in 1992 or so, my LCS was more of less walking distance (3 miles) and had copies 80s Marvel back issues for usually .25 over cover.. I got most of Michelinie Iron Man.. up though 'current' at the time that way, as well as this very run, Stern's Avengers, and other 'unpopular' at the time stuff.
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Golddragon71
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Post by Golddragon71 on Mar 1, 2016 11:22:35 GMT -5
In 1989 I was dividing my time between Portsmouth, where I was living and working at the time, and south London, where my parents lived. Portsmouth had two comic shops at the time, one of which had a huge selection of back issues, and there were another three within a short bus ride from my mother's place, plus several more in central London, which I visited pretty regularly. There were also still plenty of comics in the high street newsagents. For a comics fan in Britain, the 80s were a very good time, I'd say. But in terms of actual creativity, I still think the peak was about 1983. Local comic shops came late to the part of Long Island, NY that I grew up in. There was one about twenty minutes from me that had been there for some years and had an extensive back issue inventory, but most of the rest were first arriving between 1988 and 1994, and (not surprisingly) all of those late comers are gone today. I was nine at the time, so getting to an LCS depended either upon the generosity of my single mother (infrequent, to be sure) or my being able to walk there. There was one that was only a mile and a half away, so I walked there all the time and had my pull list there. Unfortunately, their back issue inventory consisted of maybe twelve long boxes just sitting on the floor. The one twenty minutes away wouldn't be Port Jefferson's Flashpoint would it? I used to live in Miller Place (1990-92) which was about five miles away and I would walk down into Port Jeff every Saturday to get my new books and whatnot. (as I recall they had a pretty solid Back issue selection. by the time I went to college they had moved out of the little mini-mall in Port Jeff and up the street to a solo building that had a lot more room. Every February would be their big promotional even called Flashbruary where they would have trivia contests, raffles, giveaways, and massive sales on Back issues (this is how I got most of my Flash and Justice League back issues from the International Era) The funny thing is they had these promotional coupons called Flash-bucks that had a picture of Spiderman instead of the Flash (Spidey was spinning a dollar on his finger like a basketball) |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 1, 2016 12:36:38 GMT -5
The one twenty minutes away wouldn't be Port Jefferson's Flashpoint would it? No. I don't recall the name, but it was on Jericho Turnpike. That's all I remember. Having only lived on Long Island for the first 18 years of my life (when I wasn't really driving yet), I don't recall the geography all that well beyond my immediate neighborhood. That's incredibly cool. Port Jefferson was way East of me. I was in the New Hyde Park area of Nassau County. |
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Post by sabongero on Mar 1, 2016 14:16:04 GMT -5
The Justice League Scorecard (as of Justice League International #13)W = win W* = win with a significant technicality L = loss X = someone else won for them Justice League #1: W* (Maxwell Lord set the whole thing up so that they'd win) Justice League #2: L (They retreat from Balian airspace under orders from their airforce) Justice League #3: X (The Russians, with some helpful suggestions from Maxwell Lord, save the day) Justice League #4: W* (Maxwell Lord set the whole thing up so that Booster Gold would win) Justice League #5 (not resolved until the next issue) Justice League Annual #1: W* (Senior members Martian Manhunter and Dr. Fate save the day when the rest of the team was too incompetent to do a darn thing) Justice League #6: X (Dr. Fate saves the day, making it abundantly clear that The League was not needed at all) Justice League International #7: W* (another set-up by an outside benefactor to deliver the team an easy and high profile win) Justice League International #8: (no mission) Justice League International #9: X (The Rocket Reds save the day, though Booster Gold does get the final moment of glory after it's all been said and done). Justice League International #10: X (only one member of the team was even present in the lead story, and someone else saved the day in the B story too) Millennium: X (Booster Gold saved the day while not affiliated with the JLI) Justice League International #11: W* (The whole victory was a setup by a villain with a larger plan for the team) Justice League International #12: X (The team flies around confused while Maxwell Lord saves the day) Justice League International #13: (part one of a two parter) Total wins: 0 Total wins with significant technicalities: 5 (all staged by some other party so that the League would win) Total wins by someone else: 6 Total Losses: 1 I love this scorecard idea for a teambook shaxper. I wonder if a scorecard was kept on other team books in the 70's or 80', just how many "McGuffin" wins would pop out. Reading some of the team What If issues had me thinking about your scorecard on team books. |
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Post by MDG on Mar 1, 2016 14:30:24 GMT -5
The one twenty minutes away wouldn't be Port Jefferson's Flashpoint would it? No. I don't recall the name, but it was on Jericho Turnpike. That's all I remember. Having only lived on Long Island for the first 18 years of my life (when I wasn't really driving yet), I don't recall the geography all that well beyond my immediate neighborhood. Wasn't there a store called The Batcave out that way? In a stripmall, I think. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 1, 2016 16:01:18 GMT -5
No. I don't recall the name, but it was on Jericho Turnpike. That's all I remember. Having only lived on Long Island for the first 18 years of my life (when I wasn't really driving yet), I don't recall the geography all that well beyond my immediate neighborhood. Wasn't there a store called The Batcave out that way? In a stripmall, I think. Not that I was aware of. |
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Golddragon71
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Post by Golddragon71 on Mar 7, 2016 0:41:06 GMT -5
Ok, Back to the main topic...I was just re-reading this thread from scratch and i wanted to weigh in on something.
In my looking back at the many various eras of the League i've broken them up into the following Divisions
The Founding Era
This is the Silver age and goes from the Justice League's first Appearance in Brave and the Bold until after the Joker/Snapper Carr incident that caused the League to abandon the secret sanctuary.
The Satellite Era
Regarded by so many as the Salad Days of the Justice League. This was the Bronze age League Nine times out of ten if you mentioned the Justice League to anyone (even during the later eras, this is still how they saw them.
The Detroit Era
The final years of the Initial Run of the Justice league of America I was totally unaware of it's existance until several years into my fandom amusingly enough two of it's members are now superstars in the DC TV Universe
The International Era
The Bwa-Ha-Ha-ha Years. Starting out of Legends and continuing until Breakdowns this was the sitcom era of the League. And while it was reviled by many "purists" it held a special place in my heart as the book focused on the relationships of the characters to each other far more than any had before. (also, the compressed nature of everyone living together was similar to my own experiences in my Dorm at college so I felt a real connection with the characters through that perspective.
The Spectacular Era
After Breakdowns many of the "Classic" Justice Leaguers return (if for the "first" time) to return the book to a more "Heroic" feel. (While this approach starts off well enough, Superman's Death and Green Lantern's Emerald Twilight quickly end the momentum.
The Post Spec Era.
Following Superman's Death the League makes due with a new crop of Next Generation Heroes working alongside a few surviving members of the JLI.
This Era hits it's Low point with Judegement Day and the Killing of Ice.
Zero Hour Era
The Post Zero Hour League is fragmented and largely assembled of the scattered remains of the American and European teams as well as a few new hangers on. Thankfully, It's short lived.
The Watchtower Era
The League is re-structured and this time it's worth the effort. It starts with seven recognizable Names quickly, the roster jumps to 14 and the League is once again the Top Super Hero team in the DCU
It's JLA's success that helps establish JSA the Titans and Young Justice
The Hall era
the JLA is closed down only to re-open with both "Founding", "Detroit" and long overdue New members. This Period ends when a Classic Leaguer takes the law into his own hands
The Brightest Day Era
The final Era of the Pre-Flashpoint Justice League. The Next Generation steps up and takes the stage as the New Justice League. Maybe not the best it's ever been but at least, a step forward....
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Post by shaxper on Mar 15, 2016 19:56:41 GMT -5
Suicide Squad #13  "Battle Lines" writer: John Ostrander pencils: Luke McDonnell inks: Bob Lewis Letters: Todd Klein colors: Carl Gafford editor: Robert Greenberger grade: A- Crossovers and guest appearances tend to be obligatory tripe in my opinion, but this one proves quite different. Even working across editorial offices, I noticed last issue how much energy Giffen and DeMatteis gave to properly characterizing the Suicide Squad, and here Ostrander and McDonnell respond in kind. In addition to the covers masterfully complimenting one another, there were many moments in this issue where I forgot it wasn't Giffen and DeMatteis scripting, and even McDonnell's art borrows a few tricks from Giffen and MacGuire, most notably in drawing Batman's smoldering eyes when he's otherwise eclipsed in unnatural darkness:  Generally speaking, while the two teams battling ends up following the standard trope -- they work out their misunderstandings by the close and nothing else was ever really at stake -- Ostrander fits so much into that struggle, attaining the difficult balance Giffen and DeMatteis always strive for between laugh out loud comedy and serious depth. Beyond even that, though, he does so much to establish characterization and further continuity. Some examples: Vixen and J'onn finally get their reunion.  Captain Atom secretly working for the US Government is finally brought up again.  Rocket Red, the formerly light-hearted new addition, gets a very serious character development moment as he's forced to face some ugly truths about the government he is sworn to defend.  And Ostrander and McDonnell manage to give us a considerable amount of awesomeness AND laughter as well.     But they also continue to struggle with the same issue we saw Giffen struggle with in the previous chapter -- Batman is depicted as an out of control badass without reason. Now the Nemesis concern is practically thrown out the window, and Batman is instead furious about The Suicide Squad's existence and activities to the point that he behaves like a child and has to have J'onn break up his fight. If that wasn't enough, we end with this:  This all feels more like Jason Todd than Bruce Wayne. So...is Batman really quitting the team? Important Details:Batman appears to quit the JLI J'onn meets Vixen for the first time since Justice League Detroit disbanded, and they reconcile Plot synopsis:
The two teams battle largely because Batman refuses to listen to reason, Rocket Red and the JLI decide to rescue Nemesis from Soviet control, they try to reconcile with the Suicide Squad, but Batman wants to keep brawling, and Amanda Waller breaks Max's foot when he threatens to expose the Squad's government sponsorship for the sake of strengthening the JLI's reputation. The two teams make up, and Batman quits.
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Post by Action Ace on Mar 15, 2016 21:17:57 GMT -5
Other than whatever was going with Batman this was a very well done crossover.
Shaxper do you have the entire run of Suicide Squad? I think it might be a little more up your alley than the JLI even though there's no sword welding rabbit in it.
James Bond er...Batman will return.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 16, 2016 8:21:22 GMT -5
Shaxper do you have the entire run of Suicide Squad? I think it might be a little more up your alley than the JLI even though there's no sword welding rabbit in it. . You're not the first to suggest this! In the few issues I read, none of the team members left me with much of an impression, but I am intrigued by Amanda Waller as their morally ambiguous leader. This is definitely a "get to it someday" run, but right now the prices are prohibitive what with the movie coming out. |
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