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Post by dupersuper on Feb 23, 2016 22:38:46 GMT -5
Important Details: - Just about everything we see in this issue contradicts the much later retcon that Max was evil and manipulating the League all along, especially the fact that J'onn J'onzz reads his mind and determines his heart is pure at the end. Tell me about it... |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 24, 2016 8:25:39 GMT -5
Letter writer The Purple Pickle picks the JLI letter column title, "Justice Log." Pun intended, I am sure  |
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Post by shaxper on Feb 25, 2016 20:16:02 GMT -5
Justice League International #13  "Collision Course" plot & pencils: Keith Giffen script: J.M. DeMatteis inks: Al Gordon letters: Bob Lappan colors: Gene D'Angelo editor: Andy Helfer grade: A- Once again, it seems as if Giffen is reading these reviews and magically going back in time to give me exactly what I want in the next issue. Last time around, (as I had requested) we finally saw the serious side return to the Justice League franchise, but I complained that it wasn't coming from the core characters themselves: "We can't keep getting the necessary counterpart to all the hijinks from secondary characters who drift in and out of the story. In my opinion, the JLI need to become more complete, complex characters who deliver the whole package on their own." And this issue delivers exactly that, contrasting the silly and fun (and, man, the jokes got funnier again this time):  with the more serious:  and even blending the two at the same time with impressive results:  And, just when you thought you'd seen our characters get serious enough:  Wow. With intensity like that, it's almost easy to miss the fact that Kevin Maguire is gone as of this issue. Giffen penciled this one himself. And, yet, there are problems with this story. It really suffers from some degree of laziness. Maybe it's the extra burden of bringing in the Suicide Squad, but there's so much sloppy narrative convenience to be found in this issue. For one thing, while Giffen has exerted considerable effort trying to remind us that these characters have lives and duties outside of the JLI in recent issues, we're told that Batman has been voluntarily doing monitor duty for the past six and a half hours:  Because, ya know, that's the oath he made to his dead parents. Nothing about protecting the city they were killed in from street-level crime or anything like that. For another, you've got Rocket Red just hanging around JLI headquarters in his heavy armor like he does this all the time:  And then there's the whole driving force of this story; what's the deal with Batman's over-the-top obsession with Nemesis? I'm not in expert in many areas of comicdom, but one thing I know backwards and forwards is my Modern Age Batman continuity, and Batman has never encountered nor mentioned Nemesis in any of his own titles since the Crisis (nor this one since at least Legends). Why does Batman seem to care about this guy more than, well, anyone else...ever?  It feels forced and definitely requires further explanation. Minor Details: - Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller have a past relationship - In the letter column, Mark Waid replies to a fan letter by saying: I'm sorry...what, now? Did we just accidentally leak a spoiler too early? - Love having Gregor and Alexei back again. These two crack me up:  In short, the comedy was better, the characters gained some much-needed depth, we barely missed Maguire (I expected to feel that loss a lot more), and only a little narrative sloppiness besmirched an otherwise excellent issue. Plot synopsis:
Nemesis has been captured by the Soviets, and The Suicide Squad is going in on a rescue mission against orders. In order to save face, the president calls in the JLI to stop them, but Batman's personal attachment to Nemesis is complicating matters, even as Rocket Red tries to garner Batman's trust by using his influence to get Batman face time with Nemesis. Then the Suicide Squad shows up. To be continued... |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 25, 2016 20:23:37 GMT -5
Nemesis and Batman teamed up in Brave and the Bold a couple times, including the issue where Nemesis dies. (and Nemesis was the back-up feature for years.) As the World's Leading Expert on Team-Up Books, I grant Giffen's characterization of Batman here acceptable.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 25, 2016 20:27:34 GMT -5
Nemesis and Batman teamed up in Brave and the Bold a couple times, including the issue where Nemesis dies. (and Nemesis was the back-up feature for years.) As the World's Leading Expert on Team-Up Books, I grant Giffen's characterization of Batman here acceptable. Did they have some sort of bond that made Batman care more about Nemesis being in prison than Vicki Vale, Alfred Pennyworth, Selena Kyle, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, or Tim Drake being in peril? Batman throws all his self-control and sense of self out the window over this guy. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 25, 2016 20:30:35 GMT -5
He got killed. Batman might blame himself. (That sounds like a pretty Batman thing to do.) In The One True Continuity, as written by Bob Haney in Brave and the Bold*, Batman was never much for self-control anyway.
* Although Haney had left the book before Nemesis appears, the B & B Batman remained a bit Haneyian 'till the end.
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Post by shaxper on Feb 25, 2016 20:34:08 GMT -5
The Justice League Scorecard (as of Justice League International #13)
W = win
W* = win with a significant technicality
L = loss
X = someone else won for them
Justice League #1: W* (Maxwell Lord set the whole thing up so that they'd win)
Justice League #2: L (They retreat from Balian airspace under orders from their airforce)
Justice League #3: X (The Russians, with some helpful suggestions from Maxwell Lord, save the day)
Justice League #4: W* (Maxwell Lord set the whole thing up so that Booster Gold would win)
Justice League #5 (not resolved until the next issue)
Justice League Annual #1: W* (Senior members Martian Manhunter and Dr. Fate save the day when the rest of the team was too incompetent to do a darn thing)
Justice League #6: X (Dr. Fate saves the day, making it abundantly clear that The League was not needed at all)
Justice League International #7: W* (another set-up by an outside benefactor to deliver the team an easy and high profile win)
Justice League International #8: (no mission)
Justice League International #9: X (The Rocket Reds save the day, though Booster Gold does get the final moment of glory after it's all been said and done).
Justice League International #10: X (only one member of the team was even present in the lead story, and someone else saved the day in the B story too)
Millennium: X (Booster Gold saved the day while not affiliated with the JLI)
Justice League International #11: W* (The whole victory was a setup by a villain with a larger plan for the team)
Justice League International #12: X (The team flies around confused while Maxwell Lord saves the day)
Justice League International #13: (part one of a two parter)
Total wins: 0
Total wins with significant technicalities: 5 (all staged by some other party so that the League would win)
Total wins by someone else: 6
Total Losses: 1
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 25, 2016 20:35:39 GMT -5
He got killed. Batman might blame himself. (That sounds like a pretty Batman thing to do.) In The One True Continuity, as written by Bob Haney in Brave and the Bold*, Batman was never much for self-control anyway. * Although Haney had left the book before Nemesis appears, the B & B Batman remained a bit Haneyian 'till the end. Thanks for this explanation. It really is pretty silly that they don't at least take pains to explain this. I'm still not sure I buy it, but at least there's a backstory that makes sense if you were a reader of Brave & the Bold (which should not be assumed of either Batman or Justice League fans). |
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Post by dupersuper on Feb 26, 2016 0:28:59 GMT -5
Are you doing the Suicide Squad issue this crosses over with?
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Post by Action Ace on Feb 26, 2016 1:34:13 GMT -5
COMMENTS on JLI #13
I can't stand Giffen's art by this point in his career. The whole let me put the person's face in shadow irks me to no end. I suppose it could be worse... looks at issue #14, yes it could.
Vixen at this point is a member of the Suicide Squad and even she's got to get in on the act, "This isn't the way we did it in the old Justice League."
On page 9, the colorist gets confused and colors Reagan brown instead of Waller.
Gregor and Alexei needed to star in a Rocket Reds comic.
Who seems to talk J'onn into giving Batman the verbal smackdown....Oberon!!??!!
The bit about Batman paying super villains to attack the Soviet prison where Nemesis was is my favorite of the issue.
How Red Star commandeered the "People's Car" was awesome.
I am not buying Nemesis being this important to Batman either, but he must have been the furthest up the foodchain to force what was going to happen. (the event in Suicide Squad #13)
The last page tells you that the story continues in Suicide Squad #10 not issue #13. While Batman is on the cover, that story happened three months ago. Someone I know had to go back to the comic shop the next day to buy the correct back issue because he bought the wrong one.
Black Canary is gone, see J'onn's attempt at an explanation next issue.
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2016 2:59:40 GMT -5
He got killed. Batman might blame himself. (That sounds like a pretty Batman thing to do.) That's certainly how I read it at the time. Seemed like a nice bit of continuity, to me. |
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2016 3:01:47 GMT -5
He got killed. Batman might blame himself. (That sounds like a pretty Batman thing to do.) In The One True Continuity, as written by Bob Haney in Brave and the Bold*, Batman was never much for self-control anyway. * Although Haney had left the book before Nemesis appears, the B & B Batman remained a bit Haneyian 'till the end. Thanks for this explanation. It really is pretty silly that they don't at least take pains to explain this. I'm still not sure I buy it, but at least there's a backstory that makes sense if you were a reader of Brave & the Bold (which should not be assumed of either Batman or Justice League fans). At the time, I think it was probably a fairly safe assumption that Batman fans were likely to have been readers of B&B. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 3:10:27 GMT -5
Thanks for this explanation. It really is pretty silly that they don't at least take pains to explain this. I'm still not sure I buy it, but at least there's a backstory that makes sense if you were a reader of Brave & the Bold (which should not be assumed of either Batman or Justice League fans). At the time, I think it was probably a fairly safe assumption that Batman fans were likely to have been readers of B&B. There were 5 years between the last issue of B&B being published and issue 13 of JLI dealing with Nemesis. That's alifetime for a comic reader in the 80s. There were a lot of readers coming into DC at the time because of the DC Renaissance and the post-Crisis resurgence in sales, so I don't think it's a safe bet to assume readers of JLI in 1988 were familiar with stories being published in Brave & the Bold in 1981-1982 (which is when most of the Nemesis stuff was produced). Hardcore fans maybe, but hardcore fans then were not the rule, but more of an exception, so I don't think you can assume Batman fans of 1988 would have been B&B readers 6-7 years earlier. -M |
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2016 3:57:32 GMT -5
At the time, I think it was probably a fairly safe assumption that Batman fans were likely to have been readers of B&B. There were 5 years between the last issue of B&B being published and issue 13 of JLI dealing with Nemesis. That's alifetime for a comic reader in the 80s. There were a lot of readers coming into DC at the time because of the DC Renaissance and the post-Crisis resurgence in sales, so I don't think it's a safe bet to assume readers of JLI in 1988 were familiar with stories being published in Brave & the Bold in 1981-1982 (which is when most of the Nemesis stuff was produced). Hardcore fans maybe, but hardcore fans then were not the rule, but more of an exception, so I don't think you can assume Batman fans of 1988 would have been B&B readers 6-7 years earlier. -M Well, I can only really look at it from my own perspective, and I was a Batman reader in '88 who'd been a B&B reader seven years earlier, as were the few friends of mine at the time who read comics. OK, we probably were hardcore fans, but then, since we knew no non hardcore fans, such an assumption would probably have made perfect sense to us. |
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2016 7:29:10 GMT -5
Are you doing the Suicide Squad issue this crosses over with? Absolutely. It's next. |
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