shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2015 3:40:23 GMT -5
Shax-are you just going to do the main JL/JLI series or their appearances in other books? (the thought occured to me when I was rereading the first Sandman volume yesterday and Mr. Miracle and Martian Manhunter appear in one of the Embassies and interact with the ole Dream Lord. -M I'm not planning on reading appearances in other works unless someone makes the case that there's a particularly important or worthwhile guest appearance somewhere. If you have such feelings, announce them now so that I can get my hands on those issues without bringing these reviews to a screeching halt while I wait for them to arrive  But I really really don't want to get into the predicament of trying to read the Booster Gold and Blue Beetle solo titles alongside the Justice League books, for example. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 3:45:27 GMT -5
Shax-are you just going to do the main JL/JLI series or their appearances in other books? (the thought occured to me when I was rereading the first Sandman volume yesterday and Mr. Miracle and Martian Manhunter appear in one of the Embassies and interact with the ole Dream Lord. -M I'm not planning on reading appearances in other works unless someone makes the case that there's a particularly important or worthwhile guest appearance somewhere. If you have such feelings, announce them now so that I can get my hands on those issues without bringing these reviews to a screeching halt while I wait for them to arrive But I really really don't want to get into the predicament of trying to read the Booster Gold and Blue Beetle solo titles alongside the Justice League books, for example. The Sandman story (Passengers I believe, from Preludes & Nocturnes)was a bit continuity focused actually-with Morpheus seeking something from the old JLA but finding the new one and J'onn talking about trying to preserving the legacy of the old League but being afraid others would think it silly, and since you had been asking about the relationship b/w the old JLA and the new, I thought it might be of interest for you (I know you've read at least parts of Sandman before) -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2015 3:49:29 GMT -5
I'm not planning on reading appearances in other works unless someone makes the case that there's a particularly important or worthwhile guest appearance somewhere. If you have such feelings, announce them now so that I can get my hands on those issues without bringing these reviews to a screeching halt while I wait for them to arrive But I really really don't want to get into the predicament of trying to read the Booster Gold and Blue Beetle solo titles alongside the Justice League books, for example. The Sandman story (Passengers I believe, from Preludes & Nocturnes)was a bit continuity focused actually-with Morpheus seeking something from the old JLA but finding the new one and J'onn talking about trying to preserving the legacy of the old League but being afraid others would think it silly, and since you had been asking about the relationship b/w the old JLA and the new, I thought it might be of interest for you (I know you've read at least parts of Sandman before) -M I've read all of Sandman, and I enjoyed that issue, but I also see it as Gaiman's particular take on the property and not necessarily something to be treated as hard and official continuity. I think I'd rather stick to appearances that have the involvement of Giffen, Dematteis, and/or Helfer, and even then, only appearances that are significant in some respect. |
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 30, 2015 4:56:36 GMT -5
Thanks for this! I couldn't recall if there was a point where the original Doctor Fate left the team, but I assume from what you've posted above, that such a point did indeed occur. Fate leaves at the conclusion of the aforementioned GrayMan storyline irrc (which was #6 I believe). -M He appears alongside the new lineup of the JLI in Booster Gold #22 the same month, but I think that was an error. |
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 30, 2015 5:01:14 GMT -5
Shax-are you just going to do the main JL/JLI series or their appearances in other books? (the thought occured to me when I was rereading the first Sandman volume yesterday and Mr. Miracle and Martian Manhunter appear in one of the Embassies and interact with the ole Dream Lord. -M I'm not planning on reading appearances in other works unless someone makes the case that there's a particularly important or worthwhile guest appearance somewhere. If you have such feelings, announce them now so that I can get my hands on those issues without bringing these reviews to a screeching halt while I wait for them to arrive But I really really don't want to get into the predicament of trying to read the Booster Gold and Blue Beetle solo titles alongside the Justice League books, for example. I think both Millennium and Invasion (the core titles only) are probably fairly essential reading if you want to avoid confusion, since the JLI were heavily involved in those events. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2015 9:41:38 GMT -5
Legends #5  "Let Slip the Dogs of War!" plot: John Ostrander script: Len Wein pencils: John Byrne inks: Karl Kesel letters: Steve Haynie colors: Tom Ziuko editor: Mike Gold grade: n/a Our team moves closer to a final form, and yet it's.... not exactly the team I was expecting.  So what's up with this choice of characters? Clearly, from a story perspective, any nine superheroes could have made the decision to ignore the President's edict for superheroes to go inactive, but from a creator's standpoint, what the heck is Beast Boy/Changeling doing here? Clearly, Flash is here because DC was about to spin out into a new Flash series, but as that was also the plan for Captain Marvel, I'm wondering if Marvel wasn't originally intended to become one of the new Justice League; perhaps there was some last minute substitution with Gar Logan. In terms of the establishing and developing of characters, we get the following. Captain Marvel: Interesting that, while reminding us that he continues to think like a boy when in Marvel's body, we're also shown that he's not exactly the same because he carries the wisdom of Solomon with him while in that form. Yeah, we'd known this since the 1940s, but it's interesting to show it affecting his inner thoughts for the first time. Ostrander and Wein are truly placing a lot of consideration into depicting what it's like for a boy to become Captain Marvel -- what changes within and what does not. Black Canary: Still no real sense of character coming through. Guy Gardner:  Priceless Blue Beetle:  Also priceless Batman:  One month after the publication of Batman Year One, it would appear there's some awareness of a need to adapt this Batman to fit that story/continuity as Karl Kesel is suddenly inking Batman almost entirely in black, whereas he was bright and colorful for the last four issues. However, of course, the script is not able to adjust quite as quickly, and there are still clear indications that a lot of this Batman is still attached to a now outdated continuity.  Of course, O'Neil won't fully get his house in order for years yet to come, so it will be interesting seeing exactly how Giffen and Dematteis ultimately approach Batman. Doctor Fate: More a plot vehicle than an actual character here, he feels like a replay of Raven in New Teen Titans #1, that mysterious mystical figure assembling a team of unlikely comrades to take on the ultimate challenge. It's pretty clear from these early characterizations (and lack thereof) who was going to be stars in the new Justice League and who was going to be background noise. And yet, why isn't the rest of the new team featured here in Legends? The inclusion of Gar Logan in these issues suggests to me that perhaps the final roster was still in flux. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 30, 2015 9:51:45 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever read the Legends series proper (just LOTS of the tie-ins), so it's really interesting to me how in flux the final roster really was.
You might want to include that last Detroit era league story, Shax... it might make things a little more logical since you started with Legends.. .especially if you plan on dealing with continuity points.
I don't remember Dr. Fate being in the Giffen league AT ALL. Not even as wallpaper... weird.
SO excited for this thread!
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Post by Pharozonk on Dec 30, 2015 10:23:28 GMT -5
Sheesh, you just can't escape Byrne, can you shax?  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2015 10:29:06 GMT -5
You might want to include that last Detroit era league story, Shax... it might make things a little more logical since you started with Legends.. .especially if you plan on dealing with continuity points. Probably too late for that now, as I really want to keep going with this thread now that it's in motion, and I do not own those issues. Apparently, he doesn't last long. I only really recall the first tpb, though I think I read the second as well. Speaking of the roster being in flux, it only now occurs to me that Booster Gold isn't on the cover of the first Justice League issue. Does he not join right off the bat? Thanks! Me too!! Sheesh, you just can't escape Byrne, can you shax? You have no idea how many times I've resisted criticizing the man in this thread because it would be off topic, but I've just got to say (now that you mentioned it) that I loved how diplomatically Mike Gold explained in the first issue that Byrne wasn't going to let them use Superman in Legends unless they let him pencil the series. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 30, 2015 10:38:59 GMT -5
Sheesh, you just can't escape Byrne, can you shax? You have no idea how many times I've resisted criticizing the man in this thread because it would be off topic, but I've just got to say (now that you mentioned it) that I loved how diplomatically Mike Gold explained in the first issue that Byrne wasn't going to let them use Superman in Legends unless they let him pencil the series. Byrne thinks that Edward DeVere, the Earl of Oxford, wrote all of your review threads. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2015 10:49:36 GMT -5
You have no idea how many times I've resisted criticizing the man in this thread because it would be off topic, but I've just got to say (now that you mentioned it) that I loved how diplomatically Mike Gold explained in the first issue that Byrne wasn't going to let them use Superman in Legends unless they let him pencil the series. Byrne thinks that Edward DeVere, the Earl of Oxford, wrote all of your review threads. That's okay. He probably thinks he deserves co-creator credits for inventing William Shakespeare. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Dec 30, 2015 10:57:19 GMT -5
You might want to include that last Detroit era league story, Shax... it might make things a little more logical since you started with Legends.. .especially if you plan on dealing with continuity points. Probably too late for that now, as I really want to keep going with this thread now that it's in motion, and I do not own those issues. I have them sitting right here in my to read pile. I can put together a short overview if you like. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2015 10:59:36 GMT -5
Legends #6  "Finale!" plot: John Ostrander script: Len Wein pencils: John Byrne inks: Karl Kesel (p. 1-20) & Dennis Janke (p. 21-30) letters: Steve Haynie colors: Carl Gafford editor: Mike Gold grade: n/a The inevitable conclusion to the Legends series doesn't offer any real surprises. The villain is beaten, the idealism of children saves the day, and the characters who have been fighting throughout this series are invited to join the new Justice League:  It's awkward that some characters have to refuse here, though, as it reads abruptly and is clearly more the result of editorial decisions than creative ones. Once again, why is Gar Logan here unless he was originally supposed to be part of the new team? Also worth noting that the core characters Helfer wanted and couldn't have for the League -- Superman, Wonder Woman, and Flash -- do not say yes, but they also don't give a clear no either. Helfer was still holding out for a miracle, I suppose. As for the previous iteration of the Justice League, nothing is ever said about them beyond establishing that they are no longer around and, thus, are leaving a void for the new team to fill:   It's almost insensitive how quickly and easily the heroes in this issue decide to replace them without even asking "what happened?". Clearly, the goal was a new beginning with no real concern for what had come before. It's J.M. Dematteis' later involvement in the League that I suspect causes them to begin looking back to the run he had written. Anyway, we have the beginnings of a new Justice League, though the roster was clearly still in serious flux by this point. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 30, 2015 11:01:29 GMT -5
Probably too late for that now, as I really want to keep going with this thread now that it's in motion, and I do not own those issues. I have them sitting right here in my to read pile. I can put together a short overview if you like. That would be great. Thank you! |
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Post by tingramretro on Dec 30, 2015 11:31:52 GMT -5
You might want to include that last Detroit era league story, Shax... it might make things a little more logical since you started with Legends.. .especially if you plan on dealing with continuity points. Probably too late for that now, as I really want to keep going with this thread now that it's in motion, and I do not own those issues. Apparently, he doesn't last long. I only really recall the first tpb, though I think I read the second as well. Speaking of the roster being in flux, it only now occurs to me that Booster Gold isn't on the cover of the first Justice League issue. Does he not join right off the bat? Thanks! Me too!! Sheesh, you just can't escape Byrne, can you shax? You have no idea how many times I've resisted criticizing the man in this thread because it would be off topic, but I've just got to say (now that you mentioned it) that I loved how diplomatically Mike Gold explained in the first issue that Byrne wasn't going to let them use Superman in Legends unless they let him pencil the series. For the record, Booster Gold joins in issue #4, the same issue in which Dr Light quits. Dr Fate lasts until #6. |
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