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Post by kirby101 on Jun 10, 2024 9:07:46 GMT -5
More on Kirby. The story of him doing Jimmy Olsen is more nuanced that the "give me your worst title" tale oft told. Here is an article on it. www.cbr.com/jack-kirby-jimmy-olsen-worst-selling-title-dc/#:~:text=KIRBY%3ABut what I find most interesting is this paragraph. We see here that Kirby, once again was ahead of the curve, saw the future of comics. It seems the failure of The Fourth World (however we want to see it) was not Kirby's, but DC's lack of vision in allowing him to do what he wanted, Would the Fourth World Saga have succeeded as a series of graphic novels? Who knows, but certainly we can see his creativity should not have been constrained by monthly titles in an existing universe. The same can be seen with the Eternals.
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 10, 2024 9:49:10 GMT -5
To be historically accurate, comic magazines, digests and novels already existed by the time Kirby moved to DC. Warren had broken significant ground in the magazine format (and not just with horror, but satire magazines such as the art & photo-merging Help! from Kurtzman, etc.), and Marvel had two Spectacular Spider-Man magazines in print in 1968. Kirby's first Jimmy Olsen work was #133 from 10/1970; Gil Kane's Blackmark--one of the earliest, identified graphic novels with a heroic character--was published in January of 1971, but its production obviously predated that by what one would assume was some time. The point being that many sought and achieved creating alternative formats beyond the traditional monthly comic book. It is fair to say Kirby was aware of the innovations spearheaded by others, and wanted to explore that himself.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 10, 2024 13:14:26 GMT -5
I agree with that tark. I didn't mean to imply Kirby invented those formats. Just that he saw a future away from the monthlies and DC wasn't interested in it.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Jun 10, 2024 13:24:34 GMT -5
I agree with that tark. I didn't mean to imply Kirby invented those formats. Just that he saw a future away from the monthlies and DC wasn't interested in it. Kirby wasn't alone in that. Read the interviews Eisner did with various creators collected in Shop Talk and there's a lot of creators from Kirby's generation who envisioned broader horizons in format and distribution for comic material and were constantly stymied and put off by existing publishers who wanted to stick with the tried and true. Some tried to go it on their own-Gil Kane with things like His Name is Savage and Blackmark, Wally Wood with Witzend and the like, and later Eisner himself after he stopped doing PS and focused on creating larger works which helped establish the graphic novel format. Creators were focused on what was possible, publishers focused on what was profitable. And, I'll throw this in, and some may find it a hot take (and if it is, this is the right thread for it), but fans becoming creators only made the situation worse because they wanted to make comics like the ones they were fans of including format and characters, so they were willing to stick to those things which made publishers and their desire to stick with what works and what makes money happy and allowed them to put off doing the kind of innovations the veteran creators envisioned and pushed for. Necessity is the mother of invention but as long as publishers had a steady stream of fans cum creators willing to fill the trenches and churn out the same types of stories in the same formats with familiar characters, there was no need driving innovation in the areas of formats and distribution. It was only later, in the 70s and afterwards, when the market was shrinking and profits too, that publishers looked for ways to innovate format and distribution to try to increase profitability because the tried and true wasn't working. -M
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 11, 2024 0:21:48 GMT -5
I agree with that tark. I didn't mean to imply Kirby invented those formats. Just that he saw a future away from the monthlies and DC wasn't interested in it. Kirby wasn't alone in that. Read the interviews Eisner did with various creators collected in Shop Talk and there's a lot of creators from Kirby's generation who envisioned broader horizons in format and distribution for comic material and were constantly stymied and put off by existing publishers who wanted to stick with the tried and true. Some tried to go it on their own-Gil Kane with things like His Name is Savage and Blackmark, Wally Wood with Witzend and the like, and later Eisner himself after he stopped doing PS and focused on creating larger works which helped establish the graphic novel format. Creators were focused on what was possible, publishers focused on what was profitable. And, I'll throw this in, and some may find it a hot take (and if it is, this is the right thread for it), but fans becoming creators only made the situation worse because they wanted to make comics like the ones they were fans of including format and characters, so they were willing to stick to those things which made publishers and their desire to stick with what works and what makes money happy and allowed them to put off doing the kind of innovations the veteran creators envisioned and pushed for. Necessity is the mother of invention but as long as publishers had a steady stream of fans cum creators willing to fill the trenches and churn out the same types of stories in the same formats with familiar characters, there was no need driving innovation in the areas of formats and distribution. It was only later, in the 70s and afterwards, when the market was shrinking and profits too, that publishers looked for ways to innovate format and distribution to try to increase profitability because the tried and true wasn't working. -M I'd say that was a pretty fair thesis of the situation. Publishing has run into similar problems in the last decade or two with amateurs willing to give away content, for exposure, thereby undercutting the professionals.
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Post by berkley on Jun 11, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -5
Yeah, much as I'd like to believe that the New Gods and the Eternals would have been a commercial success if Kirby had been able to do everything exactly as he wanted and for as long as he wanted, given the nature of the readership there's no guarantee that would have been the case. Even now there are plenty of readers, both fans and professionals, who see little or nothing of value in those comics and there were probably even more of them back then. I still wish he'd had the opportunity to carry on with those stories, though.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 11, 2024 15:11:19 GMT -5
Who knows if they would have been a commercial success as a series of stand alone graphic novels. But I think they would have been better and not suffered from some of the faults they had due to editorial interference and being part of superhero universes. It's not that commercial success is unimportant, but it has little to do with the how we should judge the quality of a book. We can all name great books we love to this day that did not make it commercially.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jun 11, 2024 15:17:27 GMT -5
Yeah, much as I'd like to believe that the New Gods and the Eternals would have been a commercial success if Kirby had been able to do everything exactly as he wanted and for as long as he wanted, given the nature of the readership there's no guarantee that would have been the case. Even now there are plenty of readers, both fans and professionals, who see little or nothing of value in those comics and there were probably even more of them back then. I still wish he'd had the opportunity to carry on with those stories, though. I kind of wish he'd have come back to DC and finished OMAC instead of leaving it on a cliff-hanger (and yes, I'm aware of the fan-made continuation). And if we're pitching stuff like that, I'd have loved to see him do a The Demon graphic novel (though I did enjoy that Matt Wagner mini-series)
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 11, 2024 15:58:57 GMT -5
I think Kirby had a better grasp than most that books can be cancelled at any time. He would accept it and go on to the next thing. I doubt he thought much about going back and finishing, unless given the opportunity like with Hunger Dogs. What probably frustrated him more was interference with him telling the story he wanted to, the way he wanted to.
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Post by berkley on Jun 11, 2024 16:21:19 GMT -5
Who knows if they would have been a commercial success as a series of stand alone graphic novels. But I think they would have been better and not suffered from some of the faults they had due to editorial interference and being part of superhero universes. It's not that commercial success is unimportant, but it has little to do with the how we should judge the quality of a book. We can all name great books we love to this day that did not make it commercially.
yes, it's way down on the list of things that attract me to a book, music, or what have you. From a purely selfish perspective, I wish Kirby had been able to enjoy complete creative freedom on his works - and that includes being able to finish them, if he envisaged an ending to these stories, just as a novelist is able to deliver a complete product, regardless of sales. (Yes I understand the difference between a serialised and a one-and-done product).
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Post by commond on Jun 14, 2024 4:00:19 GMT -5
Love this page.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 14, 2024 4:26:23 GMT -5
I think Kirby had a better grasp than most that books can be cancelled at any time. He would accept it and go on to the next thing. I doubt he thought much about going back and finishing, unless given the opportunity like with Hunger Dogs. What probably frustrated him more was interference with him telling the story he wanted to, the way he wanted to. The more I study that era and his time at DC, the more I suspect they didn't really value him. They just wanted to get him away from Marvel to hurt their sales.
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Post by berkley on Jun 14, 2024 5:25:12 GMT -5
I think Kirby had a better grasp than most that books can be cancelled at any time. He would accept it and go on to the next thing. I doubt he thought much about going back and finishing, unless given the opportunity like with Hunger Dogs. What probably frustrated him more was interference with him telling the story he wanted to, the way he wanted to. The more I study that era and his time at DC, the more I suspect they didn't really value him. They just wanted to get him away from Marvel to hurt their sales. And it seems to have been much the same when he went back to Marvel in the mid-70s.
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Post by commond on Jun 14, 2024 5:38:54 GMT -5
This article sheds some light on Jack's return to Marvel -- link
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 14, 2024 6:13:51 GMT -5
This article sheds some light on Jack's return to Marvel -- linkThere were some editors that mocked Kirby on his return to Marvel. Some went as far to hang some of his artwork and write in insults on the pages mocking the proportions of the characters.
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