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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 5, 2015 6:29:43 GMT -5
Natasha has her hips and chest pointing in the same direction as she walking away and turning. Kind of impossible, even for a contortionist.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 6:29:48 GMT -5
Bleeerrrrggghhhh. More awful Alpha Flight art. I couldn't stand when Northstar was drawn with long hair. They made him look like a pointy-eared Steven Seagal. It was just gross. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 5, 2015 6:30:51 GMT -5
Something wonky about the way her breasts hang from her body. Almost like it's beginning to float up. We could probably do a whole thread just on awkward breasts in comic book panels. In this case, though, could just be some kind of sculpted sports bra. I'm more curious what the hell is going on with her leg. I'm not brave enough to start a thread about oddly shaped breasts. I hope it never gets started, to be honest.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 6:36:14 GMT -5
Are those really bad or are they not just run of the mill monthly 80ies lazy and boring superhero pages. I sure would run away from those comics, but then again, my inclination already is elsewhere as I never really enjoyed 70ies/80ies superhero team books, appart from the Bwahaha JLA and some New Mutants for Sienkiewicz (I'm not even sure I managed to actually read those). You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but I cannot begin to wrap my head around it. I LOVE Claremont's New Mutants (even as weird as Claremont makes everything), and Byrne's Alpha Flight, at least, was magical and different. That superhero team failed in everyway possible, and you should totally love them for it.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 6:38:14 GMT -5
We could probably do a whole thread just on awkward breasts in comic book panels. In this case, though, could just be some kind of sculpted sports bra. I'm more curious what the hell is going on with her leg. I'm not brave enough to start a thread about oddly shaped breasts. I hope it never gets started, to be honest. Oh god, please no. No breast threads, please. |
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Nov 5, 2015 6:45:06 GMT -5
Nononononononononono. No threads about breasts or any other part of the human anatomy.
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Post by Ozymandias on Nov 5, 2015 6:47:22 GMT -5
It's just that at first glance, it seems just as subjective as anyone's opinion, because I don't know you, I don't know what you seek in comics. To stay within the recent halloween theme, let's take a widly available and recognized comic, like Sandman's first issue by Neil Gaiman and Sam Kieth from 1989 DC. It is subjective at this stage, as I've already said. Using numbers instead of adjectives, allows for averaging several people's opinion, this is a first step towards objectifying what seems exclusively subjective, trough inter-subjectivity. But I wouldn't say "just as subjective", because I'm more rigorous than most. What do I seek in comics? Depends on the mood. Sometimes I seek nostalgia, sometimes quality entertainment, sometimes thought-provoking art. But when I place them under scrutiny, they all receive the same treatment. Sandman #1 deserves a 7.9/10, IMO it's not the best one of the series. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202 
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Post by Confessor on Nov 5, 2015 7:42:52 GMT -5
OK, this is the one and only warning I'll be issuing in this thread!The tone of this discussion is going in the wrong direction and there have been some uncalled for comments and remarks made by certain members (and I will be sending PMs to those concerned). Please be respectful and tolerant of other people's opinions. One of the foundation stones that this community was built on was decency and politeness, even when folks disagree over something. Let's see a little bit more of that in this thread, please. Personal attacks, passive aggressiveness and combative posts will not be tolerated. If the overall tone and decorum in the thread doesn't improve, I won't be warning people again. The thread will be locked. So, let's have some good, friendly discussion on the subject of art that we dislike and leave the bitchiness behind. Come on people, we can do this. 
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Post by Ozymandias on Nov 5, 2015 7:49:58 GMT -5
"Mathematics is the language with which God wrote the Universe." Galileo Galilei Hmmm... MRP's lenghty post my have deserved more than a mere quote as an answer, especially that one as many consider mathematics the prime tool to explain why gods don't exist. I was just respecting the source of the idea. A more atheist way of saying the same, would be: anything and everything can be mathematically modeled. Comics being a part of art, art being a part of human behavior, and humans being a part of the universe, I believe you can rate comics using numbers that would, ultimately, become objectifiable. I'm not claiming to be there, or anywhere near, but I'm convinced that, if you express your own opinion trough numbers, just by doing that, you can access a level of accuracy unavailable to adjectives. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Nov 5, 2015 8:29:25 GMT -5
Believe me, I find it interesting. As someone who used to make his living out of words and adjectives when now doing so within the worlds of the quantified notes and tones of music, I also think that criticism could be objectified to certain criterias. With music I actually tried my hand at it, using scales of complexity in melodies, tone, harmony, structure, cultural relevancy, symbolism, etc. Music being the oldest form of art ("Voice is the original instrument"), it's also the one wit the oldest and most cryptic history, which means people know squat about it, quantitatively compared to newer artforms such as movies. People are always most afraid of what they don't know, and basic reaction to tat kind of fear is defiance, which too often results in basic paterns such as "I don't like it therefore it's shit". Culture needs practice : one couldn't start to appreciate the beauty of Albert Ayler's fury after having spent a (short?) life only listening to Britney Spears or... Iron Maiden?  It's not judgemental, it's just practical. First time you'd hear dutch language for a latin person, it would probably sound horrible, and justly so, because it is too alien to our system of perception, yet. Only confrontation to the alien part of it will possibily result in an understanding of it, and then an appreciation. There ae probably exceptions, but it usualy works as a global "rule". As for comics, that also is the rule that explains Rob Liefield's early popularity : his style was easy to break down and imitate, especially for 10 year old kids with a drawing hobby. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 5, 2015 9:10:05 GMT -5
I'm one of the few that has never liked McFarlane's Spidey because I just find his artwork aesthetically displeasing. To the point of not owning the books. Ramos tests my patience too, although I've stuck with recent books. Love the Romita era though, that's my definitive Spidey.  Ramos got brought up earlier here or in the worst cover thread, as an artist, I guess, highly stylized. He's borderline good with Spiderman (the only thing I've read of any amount that he's done), but he can get out there too, so I totally get you. To earlier discussions of Jim Lee, I can see why people may not like his work. Not necessiarly the panel Gordon posted, but just in general. Most of his art has no change or flux in it. It's very bland, but for the most part done well in perspective and anatomy. I'm sure he's had some bad days, so there are panel to find. I'm sure I have quite a few things he's done, being a buyer in the 90's. But I never really sought him out. And Hush is probably the most recent thing I've read. Or did he start out doing Superman/Batman? Can't remember. But I stuck with that series for 20 or so issues. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 5, 2015 9:19:08 GMT -5
Believe me, I find it interesting. As someone who used to make his living out of words and adjectives when now doing so within the worlds of the quantified notes and tones of music, I also think that criticism could be objectified to certain criterias. With music I actually tried my hand at it, using scales of complexity in melodies, tone, harmony, structure, cultural relevancy, symbolism, etc. Music being the oldest form of art ("Voice is the original instrument"), it's also the one wit the oldest and most cryptic history, which means people know squat about it, quantitatively compared to newer artforms such as movies. People are always most afraid of what they don't know, and basic reaction to tat kind of fear is defiance, which too often results in basic paterns such as "I don't like it therefore it's shit". Culture needs practice : one couldn't start to appreciate the beauty of Albert Ayler's fury after having spent a (short?) life only listening to Britney Spears or... Iron Maiden? It's not judgemental, it's just practical. First time you'd hear dutch language for a latin person, it would probably sound horrible, and justly so, because it is too alien to our system of perception, yet. Only confrontation to the alien part of it will possibily result in an understanding of it, and then an appreciation. There ae probably exceptions, but it usualy works as a global "rule". As for comics, that also is the rule that explains Rob Liefield's early popularity : his style was easy to break down and imitate, especially for 10 year old kids with a drawing hobby. I know blaming the internet has made the invention a scapegoat for almost anything ... but, I think the ease in which people can instantly give their opinion to millions of people on something, and so many doing just that, is that the comments/posts/reviews of some don't seem to have thought to them more than "it sucks". Also will all the information available to us on the personal aspects of creative artists' lives, is there a judgment of their work, because of their actions and attitudes in life? There's sometimes a lot of fluff and sometimes absolutely no substance in the majority of critiques that the ones that are well thought out may get lost in the crowd. Which I am thankful for this forum for. I may not be able to review and critique well (tried it twice now) but I do enjoying reading and engaging those that are good at it. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 9:20:19 GMT -5
Are those really bad or are they not just run of the mill monthly 80ies lazy and boring superhero pages. I sure would run away from those comics, but then again, my inclination already is elsewhere as I never really enjoyed 70ies/80ies superhero team books, appart from the Bwahaha JLA and some New Mutants for Sienkiewicz (I'm not even sure I managed to actually read those). You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but I cannot begin to wrap my head around it. I LOVE Claremont's New Mutants (even as weird as Claremont makes everything), and Byrne's Alpha Flight, at least, was magical and different. That superhero team failed in everyway possible, and you should totally love them for it. I absouletly love love love Bryne's Alpha Flight...too bad he din't really care for the characters and flip flopped the writing duties with Mantlo who's ideas were just totally out there when he took over. I totally agree with Claremont on New Mutants...it's my 2nd favorite team book run after his first X-men run. Too bad it took a MAJOR poop after he left. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Nov 5, 2015 9:20:40 GMT -5
Hmmm... MRP's lenghty post my have deserved more than a mere quote as an answer, especially that one as many consider mathematics the prime tool to explain why gods don't exist. I was just respecting the source of the idea. A more atheist way of saying the same, would be: anything and everything can be mathematically modeled. Comics being a part of art, art being a part of human behavior, and humans being a part of the universe, I believe you can rate comics using numbers that would, ultimately, become objectifiable. I'm not claiming to be there, or anywhere near, but I'm convinced that, if you express your own opinion trough numbers, just by doing that, you can access a level of accuracy unavailable to adjectives. I've bolded the portion of your post that I'm responding to. And I couldn't disagree more strongly. Everything and anything associated with life, humanity, art, nature, love, music, loyalty, bravery, hate, cooking*, lust, happiness, sadness, and a million other things are messy inexact things that can't be reduced to numbers and mathematics. If you try, they lose their magic, their soul.
You can wake up tomorrow and declare that you love your wife 4.3% more than yesterday, or that the morning is 18% less beautiful than a week ago, but in the end they don't mean a thing, and the weather prediction that was exhaustively researched for this afternoon will probably be wrong.
* I threw in cooking because it always amuses me how much it annoys my daughter when I don't measure anything or use a recipe when creating a dish. She has to have exact measurements and recipes or it drives her crazy.
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Post by Ozymandias on Nov 5, 2015 9:20:54 GMT -5
I actually tried my hand at it, using scales of complexity in melodies, tone, harmony, structure, cultural relevancy, symbolism, etc. […] Culture needs practice I've no idea about music, but I like the sound of that It was said that "the key to achieving world class expertise in any skill, is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing the correct way, for a total of around 10,000 hours". That's been toned down, but I can't imagine practice, playing too small a role in comics criticism. |
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It's not judgemental, it's just practical. First time you'd hear dutch language for a latin person, it would probably sound horrible, and justly so, because it is too alien to our system of perception, yet. Only confrontation to the alien part of it will possibily result in an understanding of it, and then an appreciation. There ae probably exceptions, but it usualy works as a global "rule". As for comics, that also is the rule that explains Rob Liefield's early popularity : his style was easy to break down and imitate, especially for 10 year old kids with a drawing hobby.
