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Post by spoon on Oct 12, 2024 18:38:26 GMT -5
As someone who has only read New Gods #1-11 (and Forever People #1 a few years before that), personally I can sell it felt like some context was missing. It's interesting to read about Darkseid being such a big element in other titles, because there was less of him in New Gods that I expected.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 12, 2024 18:45:19 GMT -5
I have the next 10 days off for vacation, so I plan to try to read the Fourth World books in release order.
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Post by berkley on Oct 12, 2024 19:04:22 GMT -5
As someone who has only read New Gods #1-11 (and Forever People #1 a few years before that), personally I can sell it felt like some context was missing. It's interesting to read about Darkseid being such a big element in other titles, because there was less of him in New Gods that I expected. Mister Miracle in particular will provide some of that context. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 12, 2024 20:24:12 GMT -5
Desaad is also a more major figure in The Forever People. That series also features, I believe, the first mention of a Mother Box.
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Post by berkley on Oct 12, 2024 21:08:11 GMT -5
As someone who has only read New Gods #1-11 (and Forever People #1 a few years before that), personally I can sell it felt like some context was missing. It's interesting to read about Darkseid being such a big element in other titles, because there was less of him in New Gods that I expected. The other thing to keep in mind is that apart from the odd story here and there, Darkseid was more of a behind-the-scenes manipulator than he was made by later writers, who mostly wanted an impressive physical antgonist for Superman. Perhaps "behind the scenes", though not inaccurate in itself, isn't quite the right way to put it since that might conjure up the mundane image of a powerful but very human criminal mastermind, whereas Darkseid has more in common with Tolkien's Sauron than with Lex Luthor. So it's possible that even after reading all the relevant comics, it will continue to seem to you that there is less of Darkseid than there should be. |
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Post by spoon on Oct 12, 2024 23:27:46 GMT -5
Desaad is also a more major figure in The Forever People. That series also features, I believe, the first mention of a Mother Box. Yeah, my recollection of my reading of New Gods was that Desaad wasn't shown very much. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 13, 2024 3:43:29 GMT -5
Agreed. Talk about firing on all cylinders. This was that period of FF 40-67 which I think is unparalleled as far a creative force. (I will demur from whose creativity I refer too). Just look at some pages from FF #57, the first issue of this story arc. Look at the top panel, this is just a throw away image by Kirby.   And what needs to said about this page.  So Kirby left dialogue notes for these issues? Was that common? I noticed that Lee's dialogs, my main critizisim of this era, were better at this particular junction. |
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Post by rich on Oct 13, 2024 4:19:14 GMT -5
I've seen Kirby dialogue notes on many pages- sometimes Lee used them and sometimes he ignored them. Generally, Lee seemed to make good calls regarding what he kept, what he amended and what he ignored. As a personal preference, I rated Lee's scripting as much stronger than Jack's. (Which takes nothing away from what an incredible visionary, artist and storyteller Jack was)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 13, 2024 6:36:41 GMT -5
I'll never tire of Doom calling someone "dolt"!  |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 13, 2024 6:46:09 GMT -5
I'll never tire of Doom calling someone "dolt"! Ah, yes. One of the many excellent insults, along with dullard and whelp, that I've pretty much only seen in comic books. (Once when I was a little kid, I called my older brother a dolt during an argument and he just started laughing.)
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 13, 2024 8:17:53 GMT -5
I rated Lee's scripting as much stronger than Jack's. Undoubtedly. |
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 13, 2024 8:43:24 GMT -5
I've seen Kirby dialogue notes on many pages- sometimes Lee used them and sometimes he ignored them. Generally, Lee seemed to make good calls regarding what he kept, what he amended and what he ignored. As a personal preference, I rated Lee's scripting as much stronger than Jack's. (Which takes nothing away from what an incredible visionary, artist and storyteller Jack was) Yes, by this point Kirby was doing all the plotting. Maybe there would be a phone call where Jack described the plot to Stan. Often, Stan would see the story first with the penciled pages and Kirby's notes explaining. There would be times when Stan might suggest a villain, but in these 20 issues (outside of this story arc) the characters were mostly all new Kirby creations. Inhumans, Glactus and Surfer, Black Panther, Klaw, Sentry and Ronan, Him. The credits reflect this with just "By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" without delineating the specifics. About the dialog notes, that is what they were, Kirby did not expect them to be used verbatim, but as a guide for Stan to write the balloons.
In the page above, you will notice that it is Kirby who is supplying the characterization of what Doom is saying, being disingenuous about it being a weapon for justice and peace.
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Post by rich on Oct 13, 2024 10:58:25 GMT -5
Wasn't it a point of debate- whether Kirby told Lee what he was going to draw before he drew it or not, and whether Lee had any input? Lee had more affection for FF and Spidey than any other books, so you'd imagine he liked to have his voice heard, to some extent. I'm happy to say it was predominantly a Kirby creation, but I don't buy the scripter/editor not being aware of plots before the art showed up- Lee wasn't that disinterested, especially as scripting a book where you haven't discussed the plot is harder to do, so I'd say the phone call you mentioned surely had to happen.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 13, 2024 16:46:14 GMT -5
Wasn't it a point of debate- whether Kirby told Lee what he was going to draw before he drew it or not, and whether Lee had any input? Lee had more affection for FF and Spidey than any other books, so you'd imagine he liked to have his voice heard, to some extent. I'm happy to say it was predominantly a Kirby creation, but I don't buy the scripter/editor not being aware of plots before the art showed up- Lee wasn't that disinterested, especially as scripting a book where you haven't discussed the plot is harder to do, so I'd say the phone call you mentioned surely had to happen. I don't believe it's that Stan was lacking interest by that time; it's that Jack was so creative, Stan could just let him do his thing. Stan had many other hooks to oversee, some that might require more input on his part; so I'm sure he was quite happy to have Jack provide and execute the ideas month after month. And after all, as editor, he kept the ultimate control of the book. Had I worked with Kirby, I'd have been content to give him a free rein too! |
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 13, 2024 17:33:47 GMT -5
Does anyone know when the triangle era of the Superman books ended ?
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