shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 16, 2020 17:37:51 GMT -5
The Adventures of Superman #478 (May 1991)  "Moon Rocked" Script: Dan Jurgens Pencils: Dan Jurgens Inks: Brett Breeding Colors: Glenn Whitmore Letters: Albert DeGuzman Grade: D That was it? This final issue of Time and Time Again seems more interested in the Legion of Super-heroes than in Superman, presenting what I presume is the future for these characters (I've never read this incarnation of the team):  and then culminating with what may well be a continuity reset on the franchise, depending upon what they intend to do with the Linear Man altering the future:  But Clark getting home isn't really given any attention at the end, nor did he ever struggle to arrive there. One issue of Action Comics aside, Supes was a passive pawn in this series from beginning to end, never working towards a goal, never inviting us to root for him. That's not how a story is supposed to work. And, once again, the focus is given to a different franchise with no regard for how accessible or alienating this will be for fans who don't know the series. I had no damn idea who Dev-Em was, nor what these passing references to his backstory were:  The backstory finally gets explained 12 pages in, but the explanation goes on to make MORE references I don't get.  Stop assuming we know who Valor is! (It's okay. I looked it up) And the entire pacing of this issue was bewildering. Jurgens keeps shifting between backstory and present action in ways that are jarring and ultimately make no sense. How can Dev-Em, for example, find and beat up the Dominators, Saturn Girl running to them and reading one's mind moments later, only for Dev-Em to have already discovered the Dominators' dark secret and the button to activate the bombs? And why would the dying Dominator even know that he'd discovered all this?  It's so sloppy. I suspect at least part of the reason that this entire crossover event has been so sloppy and light on ideas, as well as why the next Superman storyline is going to be written by a filler creative team, is that the Superman Office has a lot on its plate right now. Jurgens is doing Armageddon 2001 and a lot of pages for the new Superman: The Man of Steel #1, and Jurgens and Stern both have annuals coming up too, and yet Ordway is involved in none of this, and his contributions to this story arc stunk too. Maybe there's just no good excuse for this stinker. Minor Details:- So we're never going to resolve the TIME discrepancies in this TIME travelling story? Anywhere between several minutes and an entire night have passed across seven issues for characters still living in 1991:  (And no, none of these little storylines ever did end up going anywhere) We saw two issues back, for example, that Lois walked at least a block back to her apartment building, got into her apartment, and discovered her cat had ruined one of Clark's shirts in that time. That's a lot to accomplish in the time it took Perry White to suggest to his wife that they take a cruise! And, in the future, this story arc has lasted several hours for The Linear Man:  while Clark experienced the passing of six weeks in Action Comics #664 alone! - Saturn Girl, who previously cautioned Superman against asking about the future, is pretty laid back about spoilers this time around:  - So I guess this Linear Man is going to be a new anti-hero. After all, it was Saturn Girl who stopped the explosion, and her being there in time and knowing how to stop it had nothing to do with Clark's disrupting the time stream, so the Linear Man is the one revising history here, not Superman:  Does this guy come back again? Unless the Superman Office is ready to write a more carefully considered time-travel story, I sure hope not. I'm beginning to wonder if the original idea for this storyline morphed into Armageddon 2001, and Mike Carlin was like, "Quick! Make up some other time travel story to occupy the next seven issues!!" In the end, unless you're a Post-Crisis Legion fan, this was a waste of an issue, and apparently a waste of a crossover event. Superman was never the protagonist, Superman never had a goal, and Superman's final fate never really mattered to the outcome of this storyline either. Here's hoping things get better soon. 11 year old me is going to drop these titles in three more months, so I'm heading into relatively uncharted territory. Oh, I know all about the Death of Superman and a little of what follows it, but I've got about two years of stories before then that I know absolutely nothing about. Bring it on. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 16, 2020 21:41:19 GMT -5
From those brief bits, that seems to be the '5 years later' Legion, which was a much darker series than most. This was right in the middle of that run, so that makes sense. I bit more than 2 years later we get the "Threeboot' era...a teenaged team and a brighter future that takes them through Zero Hour, which is my favorite Legion.
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Post by String on Jul 17, 2020 12:59:20 GMT -5
First off, love the reviews of this arc, insightful as always and has plot/character points that I may have overlooked or just plain missed when I read the issues in question. I had just re-read the Time and Time Again arc a few months back and while I can see the merits of your observations, for the most part, I simply enjoyed the arc as a fun romp. However, the intervening sub-plot scenes increasingly grew annoying to me over the issues. If they were showing how time passed while Superman was lost, okay, fine but at least come up with more original flowing dialogue. The LexCorp boardroom meeting especially repeated certain lines/jokes over the issues. I understand your confusion and frustration over the apparent lack of goal(s) of this arc but I may be able to bring some further thoughts on the matter. In this arc, Superman meets the Legion at three separate yet distinct points in their history. While you may not have been a regular reader of the Legion (even Giffen's series at that time), this may have been part of the Superman's Office attempts to clarify and/or severe ties between the two mythos. Based on recollections in his blog, Tom Beirbaum said that early on into Giffen's new Legion series, a disagreement apparently ensued between their editor and the Superman Office resulting in their edict that the Legion could not use any reference to the Superman mythos. This lead to LSH #4-6 which showed the timeline being reset with Glorith taking over the role of the Time Trapper in the new timeline. Effort was made to alter the Legion timeline's to excise any mention/connection to Superman with Valor (the re-named Lar Gand) taking over for inspiration for the Legion from Superboy. For the most part, Legion history remained relatively unchanged. A new character, Laurel Gand, was introduced to fill any potential blanks left by the absence of Supergirl. However, another new character, Kent Shakespeare, was soon to cause more friction apparently. Created by inker Al Gordon, Kent Shakespeare was originally intended apparently to be a descendant of Superman's. His appearance mirrors that of Clark's, he has somewhat similar abilities, and his good-natured, helpful personality also reflects Clark's. Even if they couldn't outright name Kent as such, crafty readers could surely see a connection. And apparently, so too could the Superman Office who apparently felt it wasn't the Legion office's place to be making such future claims. According to Tom, even though they got tentative approval of Kent's character from the Superman Office, his continued presence in the Legion seemed to be viewed as some kind of jibe/insult/thorn to the Superman Office. This underlying friction apparently made the Superman Office feel that the Legion office was trying to overlap some of their plotlines with some of their current plotlines. To clarify things, this eventually lead to the inclusion of a new epilogue moment in LSH #13 which showed more clearly how Glorith defeated the Time Trapper and took over his role in the new timeline. As for why this scene was added/needed, from Tom's blog: Our story that unfolded back in Legions #4-5 was a fairly tidy way to take all Kryptonian elements out of the Legion's history and get everything back on track with "replacement pieces." What we hadn't thought about was that there were stories in the current Superman continuity that overlapped with the old Legion continuity. My suggestion would have been to not worry about it -- bigger continuity glitches happen every day in this business -- or just run a text page showing that some parallel event had transpired after the timeline change, the very thing we'd done with the entire Legion continuity. But the Superman people had a couple good points, most especially that they shouldn't have to address this in their pages, since only people who read our comic would have any idea that anything had changed and why confuse Superman readers who didn't know or care about our storyline?Tom Beirbaum's blogWas that good enough? Maybe, maybe not. In their letters pages, Legion fans had been questioning/asking what all changes (big and small) had been made in this new timeline. I'm not sure how much of that need was being reflected in the Superman readers. So I think this particular arc, with Superman meeting the Legion at specific moments in their history (even the then-current Legion) may have been the Superman Office's way to further clarify what connection (if any) Superman had to the 30th century. |
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 17, 2020 16:56:10 GMT -5
It was bad enough to jump 5 years ahead (as " DOONESBURY" had jumped 10 years ahead), and leave audiences wondering what had happened. But when-- only a FEW MONTHS in-- they rebooted the universe-- TWICE in TWO months-- that was positively insane. Suddenly fans had NO idea what happened in their entire history. And all this because of Mike Carlin-- who WASN'T EVEN the Legion's editor! Talk about nerve. Longtime Legion fans have a very long-standing justified gruidge against him. He wasn't even a good writer, for goodness' sake. I mean, just about the ONLY decent thing he ever did in his entire comics career was his run as " SUPERMAN" editor... and the moment he left... the whole thing FELL TO PIECES under Joey Cavalieri. This doesn't even get into the way that the "Five Years Later" run was-- in my view-- a BAD idea that went completely against the grain of the entire series' history and its long-standing reason for existing, and never should have been done-- BADLY plotted-- BADLY laid out-- BADLY drawn-- BADLY inked-- and BADLY dialogued by 2 people were were NOT SPEAKING with the guy plotting the story.
Never mind WHAT was going on, half the time, I couldn't even tell WHICH characters were in which panels.
When the colorist (AFTER they got the bugs of their new computer system worked out) is the best thing about a book... YOU F***ING HAVE PROBLEMS! It's no mystery, really... that in the long run, looking back... MY favorite run of the Legion is the one done by Jim Shooter, Curt Swan & George Klein. REALLY. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 17, 2020 19:57:02 GMT -5
IT was quite a departure... but in tone and style, but it was BAD, per say, just different. I feel like it was a perfectly fine diversion that not can be filed as a extended elseworlds really.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,878
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Post by shaxper on Jul 17, 2020 23:38:14 GMT -5
First off, love the reviews of this arc, insightful as always and has plot/character points that I may have overlooked or just plain missed when I read the issues in question. I had just re-read the Time and Time Again arc a few months back and while I can see the merits of your observations, for the most part, I simply enjoyed the arc as a fun romp. However, the intervening sub-plot scenes increasingly grew annoying to me over the issues. If they were showing how time passed while Superman was lost, okay, fine but at least come up with more original flowing dialogue. The LexCorp boardroom meeting especially repeated certain lines/jokes over the issues. I understand your confusion and frustration over the apparent lack of goal(s) of this arc but I may be able to bring some further thoughts on the matter. In this arc, Superman meets the Legion at three separate yet distinct points in their history. While you may not have been a regular reader of the Legion (even Giffen's series at that time), this may have been part of the Superman's Office attempts to clarify and/or severe ties between the two mythos. Based on recollections in his blog, Tom Beirbaum said that early on into Giffen's new Legion series, a disagreement apparently ensued between their editor and the Superman Office resulting in their edict that the Legion could not use any reference to the Superman mythos. This lead to LSH #4-6 which showed the timeline being reset with Glorith taking over the role of the Time Trapper in the new timeline. Effort was made to alter the Legion timeline's to excise any mention/connection to Superman with Valor (the re-named Lar Gand) taking over for inspiration for the Legion from Superboy. For the most part, Legion history remained relatively unchanged. A new character, Laurel Gand, was introduced to fill any potential blanks left by the absence of Supergirl. However, another new character, Kent Shakespeare, was soon to cause more friction apparently. Created by inker Al Gordon, Kent Shakespeare was originally intended apparently to be a descendant of Superman's. His appearance mirrors that of Clark's, he has somewhat similar abilities, and his good-natured, helpful personality also reflects Clark's. Even if they couldn't outright name Kent as such, crafty readers could surely see a connection. And apparently, so too could the Superman Office who apparently felt it wasn't the Legion office's place to be making such future claims. According to Tom, even though they got tentative approval of Kent's character from the Superman Office, his continued presence in the Legion seemed to be viewed as some kind of jibe/insult/thorn to the Superman Office. This underlying friction apparently made the Superman Office feel that the Legion office was trying to overlap some of their plotlines with some of their current plotlines. To clarify things, this eventually lead to the inclusion of a new epilogue moment in LSH #13 which showed more clearly how Glorith defeated the Time Trapper and took over his role in the new timeline. As for why this scene was added/needed, from Tom's blog: Our story that unfolded back in Legions #4-5 was a fairly tidy way to take all Kryptonian elements out of the Legion's history and get everything back on track with "replacement pieces." What we hadn't thought about was that there were stories in the current Superman continuity that overlapped with the old Legion continuity. My suggestion would have been to not worry about it -- bigger continuity glitches happen every day in this business -- or just run a text page showing that some parallel event had transpired after the timeline change, the very thing we'd done with the entire Legion continuity. But the Superman people had a couple good points, most especially that they shouldn't have to address this in their pages, since only people who read our comic would have any idea that anything had changed and why confuse Superman readers who didn't know or care about our storyline?Tom Beirbaum's blogWas that good enough? Maybe, maybe not. In their letters pages, Legion fans had been questioning/asking what all changes (big and small) had been made in this new timeline. I'm not sure how much of that need was being reflected in the Superman readers. So I think this particular arc, with Superman meeting the Legion at specific moments in their history (even the then-current Legion) may have been the Superman Office's way to further clarify what connection (if any) Superman had to the 30th century. This is fascinating and extremely helpful. Thank you, String. From a storytelling perspective, then, I wish they had just made the Legion the full focus of Time and Time Again. No Etrigan chapter, no WWII chapters, no Dinosaur chapter. Give this series a clear central focus with Clark intersecting with the Legion at key points in their history. Once again, I wonder if the original concept for Time and Time Again morphed into Armageddon 2001, leaving the Superman office scurrying to put a time travel story together at the last minute. It's the only way I can explain the complete lack of focus for seven sustained issues. |
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,878
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Post by shaxper on Jul 17, 2020 23:43:39 GMT -5
It was bad enough to jump 5 years ahead (as " DOONESBURY" had jumped 10 years ahead), and leave audiences wondering what had happened. But when-- only a FEW MONTHS in-- they rebooted the universe-- TWICE in TWO months-- that was positively insane. Suddenly fans had NO idea what happened in their entire history. And all this because of Mike Carlin-- who WASN'T EVEN the Legion's editor! Talk about nerve. Of course, this wasn't the first moment of contention between the Legion and the Superman Office. They scored a decisive victory with L.E.G.I.O.N. '90 Annual #1, in which the Superman Office lost its version of Brainiac it had worked so hard to cultivate because Art Young wanted a Brainiac that would play Fu Manchu to Brainiac 5's Shang-Chi. As a Superman fan, I remain pretty miffed about that one, myself. By 1991, the Superman Office was DC's second most successful editorial office, and it was certainly DC's most meticulously planned and tightly controlled office. If I were sitting in the big chair, I have to admit I'd probably let Carlin have his way too. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 18, 2020 10:05:38 GMT -5
I understand your confusion and frustration over the apparent lack of goal(s) of this arc but I may be able to bring some further thoughts on the matter. In this arc, Superman meets the Legion at three separate yet distinct points in their history. While you may not have been a regular reader of the Legion (even Giffen's series at that time), this may have been part of the Superman's Office attempts to clarify and/or severe ties between the two mythos. Though I might be misremembering things, I recall that following Zero Hour in 1994 (or perhaps sooner) the Superman offices didn't mention Superman's interactions with the pocket universe Superboy again. While his execution of the Phantom Zone villains would be referred to now and then, I don't remember Superman ever bringing up that version of Superboy and it appears that you've explained why. Not that there necessarily would have been a lot of cause to do so, but it was kind of odd how when a new Superboy appeared on the scene during Reign and with a dog named Krypto at that, Superman never reflected upon the similarities and differences between the two. The pocket universe Supergirl was still around and I don't recall her backstory being played up though we did get regular reminders of how her powers worked, a couple of comments pertaining to her relationship with the Kents, etc. It just seemed like the Pocket Universe Superboy was verboten over at DC and with his connection to The Legion of Superheroes, I think I now see why. Thanks for this, String - great reading! |
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Post by String on Jul 18, 2020 11:04:13 GMT -5
It was bad enough to jump 5 years ahead (as " DOONESBURY" had jumped 10 years ahead), and leave audiences wondering what had happened. But when-- only a FEW MONTHS in-- they rebooted the universe-- TWICE in TWO months-- that was positively insane. Suddenly fans had NO idea what happened in their entire history. And all this because of Mike Carlin-- who WASN'T EVEN the Legion's editor! Talk about nerve. Of course, this wasn't the first moment of contention between the Legion and the Superman Office. They scored a decisive victory with L.E.G.I.O.N. '90 Annual #1, in which the Superman Office lost its version of Brainiac it had worked so hard to cultivate because Art Young wanted a Brainiac that would play Fu Manchu to Brainiac 5's Shang-Chi. As a Superman fan, I remain pretty miffed about that one, myself. By 1991, the Superman Office was DC's second most successful editorial office, and it was certainly DC's most meticulously planned and tightly controlled office. If I were sitting in the big chair, I have to admit I'd probably let Carlin have his way too.Bierbaum freely admits that in his blog. Any dispute, regardless of who started it, would be settled in favor of the Superman Office, no question. Sales alone between the titles would signify that. I recently finished reading Giffen's 5YL run for the first time and I will say here that I loved it. You can quarrel about the direction they took but for me, in terms of plotting, characterization, and art, it was terrific. The Legion, for better or worse, grew up here. I will also say that yes, T & M Beirbaum, at that time, were novice writers. A difference in the layering of plot threads is noticeable once Giffen fully departed the book and they took over full writing reigns. I have yet to make it to the series end with Zero Hour but I would tentatively agree with you chadwilliam, that any reference to the Pocket Universe Superboy had become verboten due to the influence of the Superman Office. |
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Post by zaku on Jul 18, 2020 11:11:19 GMT -5
I understand your confusion and frustration over the apparent lack of goal(s) of this arc but I may be able to bring some further thoughts on the matter. In this arc, Superman meets the Legion at three separate yet distinct points in their history. While you may not have been a regular reader of the Legion (even Giffen's series at that time), this may have been part of the Superman's Office attempts to clarify and/or severe ties between the two mythos. Though I might be misremembering things, I recall that following Zero Hour in 1994 (or perhaps sooner) the Superman offices didn't mention Superman's interactions with the pocket universe Superboy again. While his execution of the Phantom Zone villains would be referred to now and then, I don't remember Superman ever bringing up that version of Superboy and it appears that you've explained why. Not that there necessarily would have been a lot of cause to do so, but it was kind of odd how when a new Superboy appeared on the scene during Reign and with a dog named Krypto at that, Superman never reflected upon the similarities and differences between the two. The pocket universe Supergirl was still around and I don't recall her backstory being played up though we did get regular reminders of how her powers worked, a couple of comments pertaining to her relationship with the Kents, etc. It just seemed like the Pocket Universe Superboy was verboten over at DC and with his connection to The Legion of Superheroes, I think I now see why. Thanks for this, String - great reading! Well, after Zero Hour we had a soft reboot of the Dc Universe (and a new Legion), so it's perfectly plausible that Pocket Universe Superboy was erased from the existence, while other elements were maintained (like the Matrix-Supergirl). |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 18, 2020 22:36:20 GMT -5
Though I might be misremembering things, I recall that following Zero Hour in 1994 (or perhaps sooner) the Superman offices didn't mention Superman's interactions with the pocket universe Superboy again. While his execution of the Phantom Zone villains would be referred to now and then, I don't remember Superman ever bringing up that version of Superboy and it appears that you've explained why. Not that there necessarily would have been a lot of cause to do so, but it was kind of odd how when a new Superboy appeared on the scene during Reign and with a dog named Krypto at that, Superman never reflected upon the similarities and differences between the two. The pocket universe Supergirl was still around and I don't recall her backstory being played up though we did get regular reminders of how her powers worked, a couple of comments pertaining to her relationship with the Kents, etc. It just seemed like the Pocket Universe Superboy was verboten over at DC and with his connection to The Legion of Superheroes, I think I now see why. Thanks for this, String - great reading! Well, after Zero Hour we had a soft reboot of the Dc Universe (and a new Legion), so it's perfectly plausible that Pocket Universe Superboy was erased from the existence, while other elements were maintained (like the Matrix-Supergirl). I believe that the "rules" of Zero Hour was that each title got to change one thing about their history going forward (ie. in Batman's case he was now an Urban Legend who may or may not have ever encountered Joe Chill) which meant that unlike Crisis where there was sort of a 'do whatever you want' approach to most characters, here each team was expected to choose very, very carefully what that one wish was. That the Superman office decided that the Pocket Universe Superboy never existing was the one change they got to make made me wonder why that wish was so important to them. After all, so many other minor characters and details remained consistent pre and post-Zero Hour that it seemed odd to me that here was the only bit of post-Crisis continuity that DC refused to acknowledge. I suspect that Zero Hour was a convenient explanation should anyone ask, but even had it not occurred, I still think the Super-Office's attitude would have been "Pocket Universe Superboy? What Pocket Universe Superboy?" |
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Post by zaku on Jul 19, 2020 2:19:12 GMT -5
Well, after Zero Hour we had a soft reboot of the Dc Universe (and a new Legion), so it's perfectly plausible that Pocket Universe Superboy was erased from the existence, while other elements were maintained (like the Matrix-Supergirl). I believe that the "rules" of Zero Hour was that each title got to change one thing about their history going forward (ie. in Batman's case he was now an Urban Legend who may or may not have ever encountered Joe Chill) which meant that unlike Crisis where there was sort of a 'do whatever you want' approach to most characters, here each team was expected to choose very, very carefully what that one wish was. That the Superman office decided that the Pocket Universe Superboy never existing was the one change they got to make made me wonder why that wish was so important to them. After all, so many other minor characters and details remained consistent pre and post-Zero Hour that it seemed odd to me that here was the only bit of post-Crisis continuity that DC refused to acknowledge. I suspect that Zero Hour was a convenient explanation should anyone ask, but even had it not occurred, I still think the Super-Office's attitude would have been "Pocket Universe Superboy? What Pocket Universe Superboy?" If I remember correctly, the post- Zero Hour Legion didn't have a Superboy in his history, so, while IRL the reason why they never mentioned him again could be that they were simply ashamed for it, in-universe it's clear that the Pocket Universe stories must have happened in a different way than they were told before. |
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Post by zaku on Jul 19, 2020 2:47:12 GMT -5
I believe that the "rules" of Zero Hour was that each title got to change one thing about their history going forward (ie. in Batman's case he was now an Urban Legend who may or may not have ever encountered Joe Chill) which meant that unlike Crisis where there was sort of a 'do whatever you want' approach to most characters, here each team was expected to choose very, very carefully what that one wish was. That the Superman office decided that the Pocket Universe Superboy never existing was the one change they got to make made me wonder why that wish was so important to them. After all, so many other minor characters and details remained consistent pre and post-Zero Hour that it seemed odd to me that here was the only bit of post-Crisis continuity that DC refused to acknowledge. I suspect that Zero Hour was a convenient explanation should anyone ask, but even had it not occurred, I still think the Super-Office's attitude would have been "Pocket Universe Superboy? What Pocket Universe Superboy?" If I remember correctly, the post- Zero Hour Legion didn't have a Superboy in his history, so, while IRL the reason why they never mentioned him again could be that they were simply ashamed for it, in-universe it's clear that the Pocket Universe stories must have happened in a different way than they were told before. According to the excellent Pocket Universe Primer this version of Superboy was definitely erased from existence in Valor #23, so in-universe they didn't have any reason to mention him post-Zero Hour. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 19, 2020 19:46:10 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the post- Zero Hour Legion didn't have a Superboy in his history, so, while IRL the reason why they never mentioned him again could be that they were simply ashamed for it, in-universe it's clear that the Pocket Universe stories must have happened in a different way than they were told before. According to the excellent Pocket Universe Primer this version of Superboy was definitely erased from existence in Valor #23, so in-universe they didn't have any reason to mention him post-Zero Hour. Huh! What a cool resource and what a great head's up - Thanks Zaku! |
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Post by zaku on Jul 20, 2020 1:01:16 GMT -5
According to the excellent Pocket Universe Primer this version of Superboy was definitely erased from existence in Valor #23, so in-universe they didn't have any reason to mention him post-Zero Hour. Huh! What a cool resource and what a great head's up - Thanks Zaku! You're welcome.  By they way, I read the article and it's absolutely bonkers! They say modern comics are inaccessible for new readers, but it seems that Legion stories between Crisis and the post Zero Hour reboot are convoluted madness... I can understand why readers were so frustrated. ETA: reading that piece more carefully, it seems that there were TWO Pocket Universe Superboys (both erased from existence), the second one created by Glorith! Can you confirm that??? |
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