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Post by profh0011 on Aug 13, 2019 19:07:19 GMT -5
I recall somebody in the KLODRNY a.p.a. once published an article detailing Post-Crisis BATMAN continuity, listing all the mutlitude of stories that had been published after YEAR ONE. I recall being astounded at the time that so much of it "fit" together as neatly as it did... considering how many of them had been written & published completely out of sequence!!!
Of course, not long after that, I got sick to death of Denny O'Neil's editorial reign, and the way I perceived that he had completely DESTROYED what had previously been my favorite costumed crime-fighter. You know it's bad when you begin to refer to the hero as... "That BASTARD who's impersonating Bruce Wayne!"
Almost universally, the only Post-Crisis BATMAN stories I liked were those under Archie Goodwin's editorial control: LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT. Many of those did follow-up from YEAR ONE, and even showed a Bruce & Batman who seemed to be growing as a person from that really rough beginning... instead of getting WORSE and more inhuman over time as seen under O'Neil. What bugged me was when they started suggesting that "not all" of the LEGENDS stories were necesarily "official" or "canon", and, that so many were done out of sequence. It all just seemed designed to confuse readers, and not present them any kind of consistent long narrative. Especially when some stories began to contradict earlier ones that weren't that old.
It really felt to me like they deliberately threw away a great opportunity to carefully craft a "new Batman" in the comics. By comparison, the WB cartoons were handled WAYYYY better on average... except when they'd stupidly run cartoons connected by obvious continuity IN THE WRONG ORDER, due to sheer scheduling incompetence. (Like when they showed Harvey Dent, then showed Two-Face BEFORE showing how Harvey Dent became Two-Face.)
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2019 10:46:26 GMT -5
I'll admit that I was wrong. Hardly. It's all a matter of personal opinion. It worked for me; it didn't work for you. Some comics are unquestionably bad, and some are unquestionably good. This one had lots of good and lots of bad. Plenty of room for questioning. I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe he says something to the effect that he knew it wasn't really them, not that this makes much sense. And then, if the guy has super speed, how did they catch him by surprise at all? Really, in spite of all the efforts to de-power the guy, Superman is still too powerful for most conflicts to be at all believable for him. Maybe that's why the Superman Office spent most of its time up until now down-playing the significance of his battles and playing up the human drama instead. A deadline is a far more believable threat for Clark than a giant robot. [/b][/quote] Yeah. Again, he was really written out of character on this one, and I have to wonder if someone was ghost scripting for Jurgens. Byrne was never given the choice. Contrary to how he sells his own involvement in the franchise, the rules of the Post Crisis reboot were already decided upon by Frank Miller, Steve Gerber, Andy Helfer, and Marv Wolfman long before Byrne signed on to the project. Byrne always wanted to bring back the Pre-Crisis components of the Superman franchise, and once he was squarely in charge of the Superman Office, he began reintroducing those more fantastic elements (including Mxyzptlk and a Pocket Universe Superboy) by the fall of 1987. That's a really good point. Maybe this had been a file story, written by Jurgens in 1990 amidst all the crossover and cross-continuity madness, that finally found publication here. Assuming #473's guest appearance of Guy Gardner and Hal Jordan was a sales decision and not Jurgens' idea, and considering that Jurgens is trying to create a tradition with making the first issue of each year a social issues story, this was really the first "free" issue Jurgens has had in nine months. I'd concluded previously that some of the 1990 crossovers seemed to have been planned last minute (Soul Search, in particular, disrupted stories that were already in progress), so this could easily have been an older story that had been gathering dust for a while, maybe even Jurgens' first script for the office since it's so inconsistent in characterization. EDIT: I just did a little more looking and realized Jurgens had only ever written one story prior to this that was neither part of an inter-title crossover nor a guest hero issue presumably mandated to boost sales (The Hank Henshaw story in #466 and #468). It's possible he was getting input/help from others on the crossovers, and that this is what his own solo work looks like at this early point. Or it's a solo story he'd been sitting on, written over a year earlier, when he thought he was going to have more independence as a writer. Either way, you're right that it doesn't fit. I didn't realize he had his origins in the Pre-Crisis. Yes, the Western "Pard'ner" bit is a tad forced, but characters are often a little awkward in their first few appearances. It's more the execution that is awkward than the idea itself; I can see it working better down the road. Oh god no. It's really not the character that I mind, though. It's that acknowledging his existence means acknowledging the story in which he was first introduced, and I truly want to forget.
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2019 11:15:49 GMT -5
I recall somebody in the KLODRNY a.p.a. once published an article detailing Post-Crisis BATMAN continuity, listing all the mutlitude of stories that had been published after YEAR ONE. You're not thinking of my Post-Crisis Batman Continuity chronology, are you? If you have the interest and patience to read my chronology, it really doesn't completely work. O'Neil definitely made up things as he went. The only real rules that seemed to govern the Bat Office for it's first two years (prior to Batman #431) were that: 1. Year One is continuity (though he waffled on whether or not Year Two, Dark Knight Returns, and The Killing Joke were) 2. Batman has been active for 10 years (and even this changed once Tim Drake was introduced). Well, there really wasn't one specific take on Batman under O'Neil (again, because he was so sloppy and unconcerned in his oversight). Collins wrote a totally different Batman than Miller, Barr tried to find a middle road between the two depictions, Starlin couldn't make up his own mind on Batman's characterization at all, and it really isn't until Wolfman and Grant that we see a stable approach to the character who definitely wasn't the "Bat D*ck" that we tend to remember best in the Post Crisis (I blame Giffen and DeMatteis' Justice League for that impression). I'm not sure how we drifted onto this tangent, but if there is one thing I know better than Post-Crisis Superman, it's Post-Crisis Batman Take my word for it, The Superman Office is being run much much more carefully.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 15, 2019 12:56:38 GMT -5
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2019 13:01:49 GMT -5
You didn't know about the original Terra-Man? Well, hang on pard'ner.......... Oh wow, Pard'ner 😯
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 15, 2019 14:59:13 GMT -5
I want Terra-Man in the next attempt at a Superman film and I want him played by "Stone Cold" Steve Austin......
"Hell, son; you go paradin' around in your blue tights and little red cape, spoutin' your proverbs and folksy sayin's; well Terra-Man 3:16 says I just whooped your ass!"
"And that's the bottom line 'cause Tera-Man said so!"
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 15, 2019 16:55:26 GMT -5
Terra Man is awesome.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 19:57:23 GMT -5
I want Terra-Man in the next attempt at a Superman film and I want him played by "Stone Cold" Steve Austin...... "Hell, son; you go paradin' around in your blue tights and little red cape, spoutin' your proverbs and folksy sayin's; well Terra-Man 3:16 says I just whooped your ass!" "And that's the bottom line 'cause Tera-Man said so!" Real Funny ... LOL
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Post by shaxper on Sept 24, 2019 13:14:26 GMT -5
Action Comics #662 (February 1991) "Secrets in the Night" Script: Roger Stern Pencils: Bob McLeod Inks: Bob McLeod Colors: Glenn Whitmore Letters: Bill Oakley Grade: C+ The Superman Office seems truly desperate to finally build a rogues gallery for the Man of Steel after five years of his mostly fighting Lex Luthor, and thus we get the highly unnecessary return of Silver Banshee (a one-note villain that doesn't seem to earn any of her inexplicable returns from the dead), as well as the even less developed and compelling Blaze (from the Soul Search story arc last year), and a cameo by Baron Sunday (a villain I'm sure we'd all forgotten from Superman #26). Fortunately, this year-long story arc about the ripple effects from Lex Luthor's death is at least heating up with the discovery of a will Luthor apparently left behind, as well as the naming of an heir (though we haven't been told who) that just might save Metropolis from the brink of collapse. But that's not what we really care about in this issue. I remember seeing this one on the stands, flipping through in a hurry, SURE that they'd never actually do it, and then buying six frickin' copies once I saw it for myself, certain that this was a massive turn of events that would shake the world. Well the world didn't seem to agree, but I still consider this one of the biggest moments of this franchise's now 81 year stretch: Clark Kent tells Lois he is Superman. The story? Forgettable? The execution? Lame (I really hate that Bob McLeod keeps getting to draw all the big moments in this franchise now), but the significance...wow. Sure, Spider-Man had beaten the Superman Office there seven years earlier: and I do think it's a bit lame that while Mary Jane can piece it together with common sense, top reporter Lois Lane can't solve the mystery for herself even while written as being empowered and every bit Clark's equal in this Post-Crisis reboot. If the powers that be were going to allow her to know the secret, she deserved the right to learn it on her own, or to at least have suspected. She is caught so very blind-sided here. But still, a core foundation of this franchise, literally from the first appearance, had always been Lois not knowing Clark's secret. To blow it up like this was huge to me. Important Details:- Clark reveals his dual identity to Lois - Lois has a cat named Elroy Minor Details:- With all my hating on Bob McLeod's lackluster art, I definitely have to give him credit for what he does with his inks when the lights go out in Lois' apartment: Why couldn't he have brought that level of care and passion to the final page, with Clark's big revelation? - Let's move on from the question of why top reporter Lois Lane couldn't figure out Clark's secret on her own and discuss how an ENTIRE OFFICE full of the top reporters in the world can't pick up a major clue about who's been living among them from this comment: I'm sure they're going to be discussing this story for days after at the water cooler, but I guess no one's going to say, "Why'd she attack us again? Oh yeah, she said she sensed Superman all over our office. Well that's strange; I don't think he's ever been here..." Plot synopsis: Blaze is guiding Silver Banshee towards revenge on Superman. It doesn't work. Silver Banshee appears destroyed by Blaze, but who knows? Clark goes home and reveals his secret to Lois. Meanwhile, Luthor has left behind a will that names an heir.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 14:05:05 GMT -5
Action Comics #662 to me it is a noteworthy issue of Clark revealing to Lois that he is Superman; but you mentioned that it is a lame way of (the execution) it is puzzling why you say that. I think this issue is groundbreaking, epic, and revelation of it was truly a memorable issue I may add here.
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Post by shaxper on Sept 24, 2019 14:16:10 GMT -5
Action Comics #662 to me it is a noteworthy issue of Clark revealing to Lois that he is Superman; but you mentioned that it is a lame way of (the execution) it is puzzling why you say that. I think I explained it above. Lackluster art, a forgettable plot, and a forgettable villain. Clark's revelation takes up a very small part of this issue, does not come as the result of anything that happens during the A plot, and McLeod makes it as visually interesting as a "How to Prevent Choking" poster. Believe me, Mech, I really wanted to love this one.
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Post by Duragizer on Sept 24, 2019 14:17:23 GMT -5
I've always liked this cover. Maybe it's Kerry Gammil's art, maybe it's Lois' hairstyle (I seriously love many of those late '80s/early '90s female hairstyles). Seriously, why wasn't Gammil doing the interiors of these issues? He's a far better illustrator than McLeod.
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Post by shaxper on Sept 24, 2019 14:22:26 GMT -5
Seriously, why wasn't Gammil doing the interiors of these issues? He's a far better illustrator than McLeod.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 25, 2019 1:00:22 GMT -5
Action Comics #662 to me it is a noteworthy issue of Clark revealing to Lois that he is Superman; but you mentioned that it is a lame way of (the execution) it is puzzling why you say that. I think this issue is groundbreaking, epic, and revelation of it was truly a memorable issue I may add here. Elsewhere on these boards is a thread discussing the question of whether or not DC "de-uniqued" their characters with their multiple iterations of Superman, Batman, etc. It isn't entirely relevant to this one, but it does help explain why I can't get excited about this issue's big revelation - given how many Superman's there have been since Crisis (post-Crisis, post-Birthright, Secret Origins, Flashpoint, whatever came after Flashpoint, etc) , it's impossible for me to think of any of these guys as anything but impermanent imitations of an imitation. I'm saying this not to knock this issue or dismiss its importance to the history Shaxper is chronicling here, but to instead establish that my opinion isn't being influenced by a "well, any issue that's as important as this must be spectacular" attitude you get when wearing rose-colored glasses. To me, this is just a story and with that said... I actually really liked this one. I read it when it came out and while The Silver Banshee may only have limited potential, I can certainly vouch for the fact that she makes a great first impression. Of course, as this issue notes, this is something like her fourth appearance, but you know, I can certainly see why DC tried to make her a foe who would appear with some regularity. The strength of Superman's Rogues Gallery never really lay in its numbers but in its diversity. Though it's pretty slim pickings after you get past Luthor, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, Bizarro, Parasite, Metallo, Toyman, and The Prankster, there does still seem to be an adversary for any type of story a writer might want to conjure up. You want an epic, high stakes, yarn which taxes Superman's might and intellect while hitting at the very core of his identity, you've got Luthor; a sci-fi space opera with all sorts of alien beings in the background, you have Brainiac; surrealism - Mxyzptlk; comedy - Bizarro; a simple slug-fest, Metallo; a let's see what Superman can do without his powers yarn - Parasite; you could even bring in Terra-man for a western shoot-out. But... Superman doesn't really have a supernatural foe and for a version of the guy who doesn't run into kryptonite as much as the previous guy did, that's probably a missed opportunity since kryptonite and magic are supposed to be his two weaknesses. Where is the go-to villain for 'Superman fights the supernatural'? Sure, The Silver Banshee might not have much going for her beyond a great look, but it would be weird if DC didn't at least try to do something with her. On the other hand, her appearance here underscores the fact that she doesn't really have an interest in being Superman's foe, of course, and that hurts the character. It sort of feels like having Superman go up against The Riddler, for instance - sure, he's the issue's bad guy and that guy's Superman so of course they're going to do battle, but you sort of have to wonder why the writer is deciding to go with that particular villain at this particular moment. I'll agree that on this score, The Silver Banshee makes an odd opponent, but at the same time, she does provide certain attractions as well: 1. At the same time that Superman is contemplating the rest of his life, The Silver Banshee almost kills him effortlessly. A villain who could kill Superman with but a scream? Whatever else you might think of her, she is a hell of a threat. Having Superman seem so mortal nicely validates the worry Lois will have to endure as Mrs. Superman. Past stories always stressed the threats Superman's lifestyle would bring to Lois' life - this one makes it clear that it's actually Lois who should be worrying. Superman almost dies when The Banshee takes him unawares as Clark Kent, he only survives because she couldn't see through his disguise. When they meet at The Daily Planet, she once again handles him with ease and renders him comatose instantly. When he recovers, it's implied that he only survived her final attack through the dumb luck of not putting down the magical axe he took from her. It's hard buying into the idea that a Lois married to Superman would be analogous to a police officer's wife worrying whether her husband will come home safe that evening - he's Superman, after all - but it works. 2. The nighttime setting of this tale coupled with the element of the supernatural just makes this issue feel... errie. This isn't quite a horror tale, but it isn't sunny Metropolis with the lights turned out either. There are things lurking in the shadows; a fist through a door at the most seemingly innocuous moment; lights going out; a Metropolis that's, well, a metropolis which seems so sparsely populated at this time of night - it's a weird juxtaposition to the intimate set-up at the start and end of the story. It starts so warm and cozy and just leads to something unusual for a Superman story. By the way, I credit Bob McLeod for this and I'm baffled by the thought that anyone could take issue with his work. His characters are attractive without looking glamourous or striking weird poses; they convey real emotions - whether it be Clark's pensiveness as he prepares to tell Lois his secret or Lois seeming to mentally trail off to some distant memory as she recalls her family life or even her 'be careful' utterance when she accepts that Clark has to "find Superman" seeming like it's being delivered by a wearied, worn down human being who is accepting that the person she loves will regularly be in danger - McLeod just seems like the kind of artist who is constantly thinking about how his characters should feel at all times. Whatever it is Shaxper's seeing, I'm completely missing it. A few points raised by Shaxper that I want to address: - Let's move on from the question of why top reporter Lois Lane couldn't figure out Clark's secret on her own and discuss how an ENTIRE OFFICE full of the top reporters in the world can't pick up a major clue about who's been living among them from this comment "What chicanery is this?! His psychic imprint lingers on these very walls but he is nowhere to be found! Where is he? Where?!"
I'm sure they're going to be discussing this story for days after at the water cooler, but I guess no one's going to say, "Why'd she attack us again? Oh yeah, she said she sensed Superman all over our office. Well that's strange; I don't think he's ever been here..."
OK, at no point does The Silver Banshee mention Superman and as you've noted, Superman doesn't really have a connection to The Daily Planet that anyone knows about (beyond appearing in their papers). I guess you could ask, "well, who else would an enemy of Superman be looking for?" but I'm going to have to still say that it would be weird if anyone - even seasoned reporters - made the jump from 'Where is he?' to 'Oh yeah, she must be talking about Superman'. Mxyztplk? Brainiac? Sure, absolutely "he" = "Superman" but who is The Silver Banshee anyway? Does the public even know who she is other than someone who does a bunch of unexplainable things and has to be stopped by Superman because that's what Superman does? When she first appeared, she tore up bookstore after bookstore shouting "Where is it? Where is it?!, when next she shows up it's to do the same before fighting a member of the McDougall clan who looked like Thor, and her third appearance likely didn't make the papers. "Where is it?! Where is he?! Where am I?!" just seems like the ravings of a crazy, albeit powerful, lunatic who could be looking for the ghost of Leif Erickson for all anyone knows. Again, The Daily Planet doesn't have any connection with Superman, therefore why make the leap in logic? I do think it's a bit lame that while Mary Jane can piece it together with common sense, top reporter Lois Lane can't solve the mystery for herself even while written as being empowered and every bit Clark's equal in this Post-Crisis reboot. If the powers that be were going to allow her to know the secret, she deserved the right to learn it on her own, or to at least have suspected. She is caught so very blind-sided here.
I think Byrne kind of made this impossible with his revelation that Lois simply believed that Clark Kent and Superman were brothers both raised by the Kents. I can't remember the issue (one of his last Actions, I believe) but it's pretty hard to go anywhere from there. Lois did suspect, did point blank ask Clark if he were Superman, and did get an answer. Because that answer was so nonsensical (was Superman raised in an attic with a blanket over his head while Clark went to school, played football, and hung out with friends; why do neither of them ever act like they're brothers or seem to know anything about one another the way brothers would; how does 'We, The Kents, discovered and raised Superman as a baby to adulthood' hide the fact that The Kents discovered and raised Superman as a baby to adulthood which is the whole point of a secret identity?; etc, etc, etc) there was no way to go forward with Lois suspecting Clark's secret without dredging up Byrne's convoluted mess. I think it was probably best to leave it be. Plus, Superman isn't so much keeping his identity a secret from Lois so much as not telling her. Semantics? Maybe, but there is a subtle difference. "Er, um, uh, me? Superman? er, uh, ha ha, what a crazy imagination you have Lois!" is alright if Clark and Lois are co-workers but once they're engaged, it's unethical for Superman to expect Lois to invest herself emotionally in him while lying to her. Sure, he's still deceiving her by not bringing the subject up, but outright lying to her as she gets closer to the truth? That's pretty ugly. You don't like that splash of Clark Kent pulling open his shirt in front of Lois now? Imagine replacing Clark's dialogue with "GOTCHA!" instead. I think it works here only because Clark has been avoiding the truth rather than twisting it. You know, perhaps that's why their engagement came out of the blue. Had we seen Clark and Lois fall in love over a period of time and move towards engagement at a natural pace, it would have meant seeing Clark deceive Lois far too often for us to still think of him as the good guy. A couple of issues of deceit? Weellllll, OK, maybe, but 20 or 30 issues? Probably not. And while I think McLeod's art is great, I will also agree that Gamill's cover is fantastic.
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2019 2:40:13 GMT -5
I can't get excited about this issue's big revelation - given how many Superman's there have been since Crisis (post-Crisis, post-Birthright, Secret Origins, Flashpoint, whatever came after Flashpoint, etc) , it's impossible for me to think of any of these guys as anything but impermanent imitations of an imitation. A valid point. One of my few complaints with this era of Ordway, Stern, and Jergens is that they sort of skipped over the whole part where Clark and Lois had a developing relationship. Byrne ignited the spark way way back in Man of Steel #4, and then everyone pretty much forgot about it until this team decided to pretend it had been slowly building in the background all along as of Superman #43, and then the two were engaged in Superman #50. All that being said, this was only the second iteration of Superman (well, there had been other more subtle resets, but most of us common folk didn't understand that at the time), so I certainly believed all this counted. Seemed crazy to think DC would reset their universe a second time when they went nearly fifty years before doing the first reset. How little we knew! Great argument for why Superman needs a supernatural foe. It's just that this particular one doesn't have anything going for her beyond a distinct look. Maybe that's why they're playing up Blaze now. Supes does need a supernatural enemy, just maybe not this one. As a basic example, consider the arrangement of Gammill's cover versus the arrangement of the final page of the story, both depicting the same moment. One is immediately striking, energetic, and utterly unique in its perspective. The other is probably the most generic, straight-forward, and inexpressive arrangement you can go with. Obviously, the final moment needed to have both Clark and Lois in the shot, but Gammill would have done so much more with this. Well he does show up five seconds later. And I'm sure when someone in that very office accepts the job to write about this encounter the next morning, they'll research where she was before this moment. They'll inevitably consult Lois and Clark as both key witnesses and colleagues to determine she was looking for Superman the whole while. And, even if they didn't, after three previous encounters, at least one of which I'm sure the Planet covered, it must be widely known that Silver Banshee is an enemy of Superman's.[/quote] Yeah, I'd tried to forget about that utterly idiotic twist. But I think they still easily could have had Lois work from some more recent clues to determine the truth. What about even just Clark's unique smell? If you've ever dated someone, you get to know their smell. She has recently been that close with Superman too. There are a million ways Stern could have given Lois to figure it out. I just felt the character earned it. Speaking of convoluted Byrne mess, though, I've recently started thinking that when I read this series over again, I'll probably start with Man of Steel and Superman #2 for the most critical events, and then jump directly to Action Comics #650. You miss a lot of historic info that way, but it seems to me that the true heart of the Ordway/Stern/Jurgens era starts at this point. I'm going to give this further consideration as I progress through these reviews; it's just an under-developed thought at this point. I think that could have been powerful -- having Clark caught in an uncomfortable situation where he meant well but ended up not being in the right. Sort of hearkens back to Wolfman's run and the humanizing of Superman that he tried to (but rarely succeeded at) executing there. If theirs is going to be a relationship of equals, maybe a moment where Clark is in the wrong but gets forgiven would be a powerful first step. We can at least agree there
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