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Post by zaku on Jul 6, 2023 3:05:57 GMT -5
PS. I loved how the fast-thinking-superhuman Deathstroke was like "WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?!?!"
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Post by badwolf on Jul 6, 2023 8:02:34 GMT -5
Yeah that's some awkward dialogue.
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Post by zaku on Jul 6, 2023 8:45:29 GMT -5
Yeah that's some awkward dialogue. Well, it's set before the debut of Superman and thus the explosion in the number of metahumans. What he witnessed is probably something literally inconceivable. It's forgivable if he fails to make a meaningful speech
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 6, 2023 16:44:18 GMT -5
Superman #68 (June 1992) And the most upsetting part of all was Jurgens' need to make Superman look helpless so that Deathstroke could look cool. This naturally means that Superman conveniently forgets to use his X-ray vision and super hearing: and forgets he has super speed a moment after that: It's...stupid. Deathstroke's trick isn't all that far removed from the one Batman pulled on Superman back in Superman: Man of Steel #3. There, Superman has time to deliver a full soliloquy about the impossibility of Batman's actions before forgetting what he was there for in the first place and just flying away, so by comparison... Superman: He's a superb athlete and an intuitive genius by all accounts, but I read nothing to suggest to suggest he could fly, or move at super-speed... or turn invisible. He has within his possession a multitude of formidable gadgets as well, if reports from out of Gotham can be trusted. I like the cape, I wonder if I should be expecting a card thanking me for the idea of if a man as redoubtable as The Batman is above such considerations? Ma made Pete Ross a cape for our sixth grade performance of The Scarlett Pimpernel as I recall. I can't pretend that Lana's performance didn't leave an indelible impression upon- Batman ( lurking in the shadows; looking at his watch): ...who the hell is he talking to? Superman: -could really go for some pumpernickel bread right about now. Ma's is first rate and I should really check in on Pa since he got kicked in the head by that mule the other day. Getting late, maybe I'll go cook me up some spaghetti and watch some TV. Current studies on the effects of radio waves such as those implemented in your standard television set seem to suggest that when employed upon highly attuned senses not too far removed from those which I possess- Batman: ...am I dreaming this? Superman: -Fred Gwynne may not have cared for the connection people made in their minds between Herman Munster and himself, but nine times out of ten- Batman: I'M OVER HERE, YOU MORON!! Superman: What the?!?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 6, 2023 21:25:13 GMT -5
Batman: ...am I dreaming this? Superman: -Fred Gwynne may not have cared for the connection people made in their minds between Herman Munster and himself, but nine times out of ten- Batman: I'M OVER HERE, YOU MORON!! Superman: What the?!? Okay, who had money on Herman Munster showing up somewhere in this thread? The sweet, sweet randomness. I love it.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 7, 2023 0:24:06 GMT -5
Batman: ...am I dreaming this? Superman: -Fred Gwynne may not have cared for the connection people made in their minds between Herman Munster and himself, but nine times out of ten- Batman: I'M OVER HERE, YOU MORON!! Superman: What the?!? Okay, who had money on Herman Munster showing up somewhere in this thread? The sweet, sweet randomness. I love it. "Superman in the Post-Crisis Era"? When did that happen? Anyhow, thing is, I think Jurgens is allowed some latitude with regards to his Superman/Deathstroke showdown. Yes, logically it should have been nothing more than Deathstroke running along a rooftop in one panel, followed by his being enveloped by a red and blue blur in the second, and then that splash of him in cuffs in the third, but that's true for almost all of Superman's encounters with criminals. I don't think Jurgens has any particular fondness for Deathstroke - earlier in this thread I linked to his comment about not being crazy about his presence in Panic in the Sky - and while his special guest appearance here suggests that the writer may have made a concession to the Powers That Be by featuring him so prominently here, I still think he showed more restraint than other writers might have in the same position. I don't know who requested Deathstroke's presence here - the Super offices? The Deathstroke one? - but in whatever conversation may have been had about how Deathstroke would, presumably, be allowed a chance to look good against Superman, Jurgens didn't really concede all that much. Being able to conceal the fact that he wasn't run over by a bus for about all of three seconds and managing to buy himself another two by jumping through a store window and then cowering in the ceiling is about all Jurgens allows. Yeah, it's still five seconds too much, but I'd like to imagine that you've got the Deathstroke offices saying, "Look, would you let Deathstroke somehow go ten rounds against Superman?" with Jurgens responding, "You can have five seconds and I'll toss in a comment from Superman about how it's amazing he wasn't hit by a bus". I will admit that I might be biased by the fact that in the time since this issue was released, I've seen Superman get beaten up Venom in Marvel vs. DC II, Deathstroke take down nearly the entire Justice League in Brad Meltzer's thing, and, of course, have heard countless times about how with enough preptime, Batman could take down Superman, so much of this might just be me reading this and thinking, "Wow! A Superman comic when he didn't throw the fight to a hotter character?!? Unbelievable!!"
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 7, 2023 7:15:12 GMT -5
Okay, who had money on Herman Munster showing up somewhere in this thread? The sweet, sweet randomness. I love it. "Superman in the Post-Crisis Era"? When did that happen? Anyhow, thing is, I think Jurgens is allowed some latitude with regards to his Superman/Deathstroke showdown. Yes, logically it should have been nothing more than Deathstroke running along a rooftop in one panel, followed by his being enveloped by a red and blue blur in the second, and then that splash of him in cuffs in the third, but that's true for almost all of Superman's encounters with criminals. I don't think Jurgens has any particular fondness for Deathstroke - earlier in this thread I linked to his comment about not being crazy about his presence in Panic in the Sky - and while his special guest appearance here suggests that the writer may have made a concession to the Powers That Be by featuring him so prominently here, I still think he showed more restraint than other writers might have in the same position. I don't know who requested Deathstroke's presence here - the Super offices? The Deathstroke one? - but in whatever conversation may have been had about how Deathstroke would, presumably, be allowed a chance to look good against Superman, Jurgens didn't really concede all that much. Being able to conceal the fact that he wasn't run over by a bus for about all of three seconds and managing to buy himself another two by jumping through a store window and then cowering in the ceiling is about all Jurgens allows. Yeah, it's still five seconds too much, but I'd like to imagine that you've got the Deathstroke offices saying, "Look, would you let Deathstroke somehow go ten rounds against Superman?" with Jurgens responding, "You can have five seconds and I'll toss in a comment from Superman about how it's amazing he wasn't hit by a bus". I will admit that I might be biased by the fact that in the time since this issue was released, I've seen Superman get beaten up Venom in Marvel vs. DC II, Deathstroke take down nearly the entire Justice League in Brad Meltzer's thing, and, of course, have heard countless times about how with enough preptime, Batman could take down Superman, so much of this might just be me reading this and thinking, "Wow! A Superman comic when he didn't throw the fight to a hotter character?!? Unbelievable!!" At the very least, Superman's super speed could probably be used to end 90% of the threats he faces in six panels or less. In this case, it just seemed so obvious that Jurgens was forcing an extended conflict that shouldn't have been allowed to exist in the first place, and it seemed even more obvious that the entire reason was fan service. You're right that Jurgens seems to do this with some reluctance (even having Superman chastise himself for not using his super hearing at first), but noting how implausible the thing you're writing is doesn't make it any less implausible.
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Post by zaku on Jul 7, 2023 18:26:31 GMT -5
I think that how they always tried to promote Deathstroke reeked a little bit of desperation: "You see kids? We have cool characters too!".
I remember how in Identity Crisis (yes yes I know) he held his own against several of the strongest members of the JL at the same time: it was really a bit much.
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Post by tonebone on Jul 14, 2023 8:01:32 GMT -5
Batman: ...am I dreaming this? Superman: -Fred Gwynne may not have cared for the connection people made in their minds between Herman Munster and himself, but nine times out of ten- Batman: I'M OVER HERE, YOU MORON!! Superman: What the?!? Okay, who had money on Herman Munster showing up somewhere in this thread? The sweet, sweet randomness. I love it. Herman Munster is like the Spanish Inquisition....
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Post by shaxper on Aug 24, 2023 12:39:43 GMT -5
Adventures of Superman #491 (June 1992) "A Good Head on Your Shoulders" Script: Jerry Ordway Pencils: Tom Grummett Inks: Doug Hazlewood Colors: Glenn Whitmore Letters: Albert DeGuzman Grade: C- I honestly went back to check the credits on this one several times. Cerberus is Louise Simonson's baby, and has been so ever since she came aboard with Superman: The Man of Steel #1. And while she has been writing generally awkward, poorly constructed stories while Jon Bogdanove draws them generally awkwardly and poorly to match, Ordway has been churning out meaningful stories that emphasize the heart and relationships among this franchise's large cast of characters while Grummett draws them adequately. But, suddenly, we have Ordway writing a big Cerberus story...awkwardly and poorly. Let's start with the big solution to the threat of Metallo in this issue. In case you missed it, Superman is unable to harm him even when he lets loose his strongest blows. Then this happens: So they slimed him with something that would prevent Cerberus from making him self destruct. That's all well in good, except 1. Then what actually stopped Metallo? He is standing and still poses a threat in that first panel, and he is down and making wisecracks in the second one. There is no mention of this goop actually being able to hurt him. 2. How did the SCU even know to be ready with this goop. No one mentions having previously suspected that Metallo was working with Cerberus until he said so himself. So the entire climax to this story makes absolutely no sense. Add to that earlier moments of lazy convenience, like when Metallo somehow knows exactly what Superman is thinking for no apparent reason: or the general absence of meaningful character interactions that are normally the hallmark of an Ordway story. And Grummett's turning in inferior work this time around too. Explain the physics of these two panels to me: Panel 1: Supes goes straight up. Panel 2: Supes goes diagnally through a building. Even panels like this one show far far too much dialogue being pressed into one moment: I don't generally discuss Grummett. I neither like nor dislike his art most of the time. It's totally adequate. And yet it falls apart repeatedly in this issue, just as Ordway's writing unexpectedly does, all while tacking a topic that seems like it should belong to a different creative team and title. Important Details:1. Cerberus is aided by a "dragon lady" and possibly a third character (visible in the first panel, although that might well be Cerberus): 2. Lucy Lane remains in a coma, but her condition is stable. 3. Jose Delgado is paralyzed all over again thanks to Metallo. This will be an interesting opportunity to get a better look at Lexcorp under Lex II since they are the only ones who can repair him. Or maybe someone at STAR Labs can dig up Dr. Stone's files on Cyborg. Minor Details:1. Metallo has been recaptured. 2. This seems too specific to not be someone working at DC. It could be a very very poor likeness of Roger Stern, perhaps? 3. We finally see the Metropolis Special Crimes Unit in action and not totally screwing up: ...or do we? After a while, backup arrives in the form of TWO guys with bazookas. Seriously, why does Metropolis even finance such a highly ineffective department? I'd love some backstory explaining that it was the result of the Mayor's efforts to get the National Guard off of their backs or that the team exists for legal purposes (insurance companies need to see the city making some effort to protect itself beyond depending on Superman or something), but the unit makes no sense as is. 4. Did we forget about Supes keeping his other clothes and glasses in a secret pouch in his cape? 5. Yeah, I feel a little bad about bringing this one up, but I also feel like we need to discuss the (unintended, I assume) racism happening in this book exactly when the Superman Office is trying so hard to introduce a positive Black character in the form of Ron Troupe. I guess it's easier to miss or overlook when a comic simply doesn't have any Black people in it. However, in attempting to right that mistake, the office is stumbling with race representation quite a bit. take, for example, this moment: A disrespectful, loud-mouthed Black teen who speaks in street slang. I mean, look, such people did and do exist, but in a book with so few Black people being represented, maybe this wasn't the way to go, especially when written and drawn by two White dudes. And add to that this little moment afterwards, in which Jose Delgado saves that same kid: Note that this is how the story opens. It ends with Jimmy Olsen saving Ron Troupe: Apparently, Black people need a lot of saving from people who aren't even Superman. Ron Troupe is particularly upsetting as the guy is as upstanding as they come, outright resembling a non-powered Clark Kent, and yet his getting a job at the Daily Planet is dependent upon his connection with a kid who takes his job far less seriously and recently quit, only to get his job back because the people there like him so much. I don't think we're supposed to feel the privilege in this moment of Jimmy selflessly offering to help Ron, but it irks me quite a bit. Troupe should be working his way up so hard (and seeing the payoff as a result) that he makes those coasting above him nervous. All in all, a totally forgettable issue outside of Jose Delgado's paralysis and the revelation about Ceberus. Too bad.
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Post by lordyam on Aug 25, 2023 16:35:47 GMT -5
I'm looking forwards to the Crisis at Hand Arc coming up; it handles domestic violence in a way that's pretty sensitive and intelligent.
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Post by shaxper on Aug 25, 2023 16:58:25 GMT -5
I'm looking forwards to the Crisis at Hand Arc coming up; it handles domestic violence in a way that's pretty sensitive and intelligent. I don't have any knowledge of that storyline, but now I'm excited too!
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Post by shaxper on Aug 26, 2023 10:41:29 GMT -5
Just a little plug that, if you like my reviews, I am currently doing annotations on Crisis on Infinite Earths in realtime. More info here.
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Post by spoon on Oct 28, 2023 23:35:52 GMT -5
I read some of the early post-Crisis issues recently. I didn't want to de-rail this thread commenting on issues. But since I see it's been a couple months since a review, I guess I'm doing that. Action Comics #584 "Squater!" writer/penciler: John Byrne inks: Dick Giordano colors: Tony Ziuko letters: John Costanza editor: Andrew Helfer created by: Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster grade: D- "You stupid FREAK! Did you really think your weak...body could stand up against Superman's!" ...fantasized no handicapped person ever. This issue marks a severely misguided attempt to acknowledge the handicapped community, and yet it ends up being a crippled man who takes over Superman's body, uses it to degrade all who are weaker than him, and ends with Superman calling him "a cripple," and putting him in his place while lecturing him about useful handicapped persons throughout history (he comes up with three) and how it's truly his mind that cripples him. The issue seems to work under two disturbing assumptions: 1. There are crippled people out there who, given the opportunity, would act like this. And lets be clear, we're given absolutely no character-developing information about this character. His only motive for being so awful is his handicap. Therefore, Byrne seems to be implying that disability = fantasies of being a societal menace. 2. Superman understands what it's like to be crippled. Yeah, he whined a few times about how hard it was while switched into the handicapped villain's body, but who the heck is he to tell him how he should feel about his own handicap. While some of the Superman's dialogue is cringey, I disagree with your premise. People with disabilities, like any large group, contain a wide variety of people. I have no problem believing some of them are scumbags. Facing the adversity of disability doesn't confer sainthood, anymore than being a victim of sexism or racism or ageism or religious bigotry. I don't see Byrne implying all people with disabilities are like this; in fact, the contrast between Gundersen and Jericho is a theme of the issue. We don't get much of Gundersen's background. We don't if he was born with disability who acquired one through an accident or degenerative disease. If it's the latter, we don't know how his personality before might have informed his response. For several years, I was one of the people who took care of a relative who had a stroke. I can say from firsthand experience that frustrations with her situation sometimes made her act unkindly. On the second point, I agree in part that a lecture from Superman isn't going to be effective when Superman only walked in Gundersen's shoes for a short time. On the other hand, I give any resident of Metropolis, where Kryptonian or human, wide latitude to lecture a guy who just went on a sadistic, violent rampage. And really, let's get to the point: Shouldn't Superman's final lecture been something to the extent of "How dare you utilize my powers to terrorize others?" rather than somehow making this about being handicapped in modern society? How many cops, arresting a black criminal, decide to lecture him/her on what it means to be black? If they do, they're certainly not heroes in my book. In fact, the first word that would pop into my head would be "a$$hole." I read this via the Superman: The Man of Steel vol. 2 TPB. It actually places Adventures of Superman #424 after this issue of Action. I think the name sounded familiar when I read the Adventure story, but it didn't dawn on me until I read your review. Placing the call after the fight with Gundersen is nonsensical from a continuity POV. I have to assume the TPB editor didn't want to split up the Adventures #424 cliffhanger from #425 or let Adventures get 2 months ahead of Action, and just didn't catch that detail. I don't hold the radio thing against Byrne. It makes perfect sense to bring the radio to Jericho, because (A) it's safer to let Jericho hear the story directly from the source rather than relaying it secondhand and possibly botching important info (like a game of telephone) and (B) waiting until she the story in its entirety to relay it rather than bringing the story in progress to Jericho would be an unnecessary delay. I really think failing to bring the radio out because the deaf students might feel excluded or traumatized would be like George W. Bush saying he didn't want to disturb the children by leaving the reading of The Pet Goat when he was informed of the 9/11 attacks. There a life and death crisis that has to be addressed; the kids will get over it. The point about the woman asking the man what Jericho signed is less clear. But she's not in that panel, so maybe she was in a band angle to see the signs. He has a bionic leg that hops way better than the rest of us. There's a risk, but it's reasonably to think that giving Gundersen control of Superman's body for even a second is far worse.
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Post by spoon on Oct 29, 2023 0:00:08 GMT -5
Superman #2 "The Secret Revealed" writer/penciler: John Byrne inks: Terry Austin letters: John Costanza colors: Tom Ziuko editor: Andrew Helfer special thanks to: Keith Williams for background inks grade: B- Seems a bit odd to me that, while it's publicly acknowledged that the post-Crisis Lex Luthor was Marv Wolfman's idea (we're even told so again in Dick Giordano's "Meanwhile..." column this issue), Wolfman barely got an opportunity to touch him last issue while Byrne is spending tons of time on the character. And, here's the thing -- Byrne writes him terribly. I get the idea behind this issue. I see all that Byrne was trying to do, but his Luthor is brazen and foolish to the extreme that I'm constantly left wondering how he ever rose to the position of power he now occupies. To start with, we have to discuss his grand moment of foolishness at the end of this issue, in which he refuses to consider that Superman could be Clark Kent because someone with Superman's power would never lower himself to such a standing when he could be out exploiting his gifts. Sure, a more subtle writer could have made me understand how a man who has the shrewd brilliance to build and run a multi-national empire makes such a foolish error, but Byrne didnt. And I'm not clear on why Luthor allows Superman to go free towards the end when he could easily kill him. What does he have to gain by making Superman sweat it out? Byrne's writing really doesn't provide a convincing motivation for me here at all. Byrne easily could have had Luthor reflect back on the insult he felt when Superman arrested him in MoS #4, discuss his jealousy over Superman's natural power and how he chooses to use it, etc., but we get none of that. Wolfman absolutely would have handled this moment better. In a lot of aspects, I dislike Byrne's need to explain everything rather than just suspend disbelief. I don't mind this one so much. Luthor is a genius with the immense resources of wealth. He should be able to figure this out. This gets the dilemma out of the way, and tells an interesting story of the deficient character that makes Luthor a villain. He's so egotistical and lacking in empathy that he can't grasp how Clark acts. This is sort of why I got sick of The Walking Dead. Or these sociopaths gather followers, when being cruel to your underlings and every strange would probably make you incredibly weak in the zombie apocalypse. People would be abandoning you in droves, while trustworthy people would be very valuable. Agreed. It's possible he could've come up with a cover story blaming Superman (or some other cause), but it would then circle back to not being able to protect his underlings. And seriously, why are these employees constantly surprised by Luthor's actions? All companies spread gossip about the boss, and I have to imagine a company with a boss that regularly flies into rages, seduces underlings, and fires people on a daily basis, would generate a TON of gossip, so how the heck is Happersen surprised that Luthor sees no moral dilemma in pulling the Kryptonite out of Metallo's body (last seen in Superman #1) when doing so will cause him to die? Yeah, that's pretty awesome long-term foreshadowing. And again, it shows how destructive Luthor's hubris is. Also, wouldn't everybody say, "Superman. Yeah, that's the guy who has a fuzzy blur in the place where his face should be. Although I'm not a big photography/optics guy, so I don't know if the exposure time for a camera would depict moving objects as blurry to a greater extent than the human eye. Maybe Lana should be working for the Daily Planet, too. She'd scoop Lois on every Superman story. It doesn't look like it has the tattered texture of the rest of Lana's shirt, so the colorist perhaps didn't get the memo that Byrne intended to smash a hole the Comics Code.
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