lordyam
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Post by lordyam on Jun 23, 2023 14:23:04 GMT -5
Carlin himself has been credibly accused of being a sexual predator so it would have to be REALLY bad. More info, please? https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/8q09cf/former_dc_editor_valerie_dorazio_chronicles_her/ Valerie D’Orazio published an essay a few years describing how Carlin was a sexist bully to her and other women for her four years working there. He was also a racist apparently It’s a pretty disturbing read
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lordyam
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Post by lordyam on Jun 23, 2023 14:24:39 GMT -5
The essay itself is on dropbox
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 23, 2023 17:46:51 GMT -5
https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/8q09cf/former_dc_editor_valerie_dorazio_chronicles_her/ Valerie D’Orazio published an essay a few years describing how Carlin was a sexist bully to her and other women for her four years working there. He was also a racist apparently It’s a pretty disturbing read Thanks for this.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 23, 2023 21:03:46 GMT -5
I just read all of that. I had a pretty low opinion of Dan Didio and his regime, before and this reinforced it. I had never heard rumors of behavior by Mike Carlin; but, that's pretty detailed stuff and it goes a long way in explaining why so much female talent moved away from DC. What I find really disturbing, when I contemplate what I have read, is that Jenette Kahn stepped down in 2002 and most of the dates are within two years of that, but there are statements that Carlin had a long history of abusive relationships with women at DC and that women in general were not getting promoted.
In the US Navy, the commanding officer is responsible for everything that happens in their command. Doesn't matter if they were on leave when something went down, they trained and certified the people left in charge, so they are still responsible. The ship runs aground because of bad shiphandling by a junior officer, they are responsible because they considered them qualified to be at that station.
If this was going on under her watch, she is responsible for condoning a misogynistic environment at DC, or not holding her subordinates accountable for not managing it and stamping it out. She has been praised for her female recruitment in past; but, if she and others did nothing about these behaviors in her time, then it was all for not. With Didio in charge, nothing surprises me as DC became so anti-female it was ridiculous at that point, as exemplified by the cited Identity Crisis, which I considered excrement when I first read it.
It is clear that the mentality was hush it up and move on and that the male employees were valued more than female. The latter has never surprised me, given the very nature of comics as a "boys club" at every level, including readership. That a corporate environment allowed this to go on is not surprising; I've seen too much of this kind of thing elsewhere, in corporate settings.
I always kind of admired Kahn and the work she did in turning DC around; but, if she was unwilling to address this kind of thing, if it truly stretched back to the 80s, then that admiration is severely damaged. If she was that ignorant of it, than I have to wonder how much time she really spent running DC and not just schmoozing with Warner executives and other VIPs. Everything I read in that account exemplifies a lack of leadership, for an extended period of time, if there were no consequences for Carlin, in the past, let alone the specific of Ms D'Orazio's details.
It's sad that a company that produces stories about heroes, with codes of honor, seems incapable of even aspiring to those standards, let alone live up to them.
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lordyam
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Post by lordyam on Jun 23, 2023 22:25:36 GMT -5
D'Orazio claimed everyone had dirt on each other so it was kind of a checkmate situation. Paul Levitz I believe was friends with Carlin and when Harvey Stephenson accused Carlin of being racist he apparently took it quite personally.
The main problem was that like Hollywood it was a Boys club, and society as a whole kinda promoted the "oh it's just boys being boys". The video games industry, the film industry, hell even journalism had that problem (the film industry on a greater scale). Having more women in leadership will help but honestly it's kind of a manifestation of society (Indy Comix ALSO had a lot of misogyny and racism. Hell in some ways they were WORSE, as shown by most things Robert Crumb makes).
It's why movements such as Me Too are so important (and why Comicsgate and other movements are so disgusting). As society evolves DC and others will evolve with it, and the regressives will always try to turn back the clock.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 24, 2023 2:41:08 GMT -5
The most alarming part for me is that, so far as I can find, DC never acknowledged any of these allegations, and Carlin retired with full honors just three months back. I certainly don't believe in condemning someone before all the facts have been aired, but for DC and Carlin to not even acknowledge these accusations is disturbing. Has anyone else come forward about Carlin in the five years since this was shared? If he had a long history of problems with female co-workers, it seems like someone should have.
By the way, who is the beloved DC editor of the 1980s that D’Orazio refers to who had issues with women?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 24, 2023 18:37:54 GMT -5
The most alarming part for me is that, so far as I can find, DC never acknowledged any of these allegations, and Carlin retired with full honors just three months back. I certainly don't believe in condemning someone before all the facts have been aired, but for DC and Carlin to not even acknowledge these accusations is disturbing. Has anyone else come forward about Carlin in the five years since this was shared? If he had a long history of problems with female co-workers, it seems like someone should have. By the way, who is the beloved DC editor of the 1980s that D’Orazio refers to who had issues with women? I wouldn't want to speculate, without any evidence, as that gets pretty dangerous. I know Julie Schwartz was accused of harassing behaviors to women, by Jill Thompson, and others, but he was retired by the 80s and made their little ambassador to fandom (which I also heard just perpetuated things in conventions. Only thing I have every heard about Denny O'Neil was a drinking problem. Kind of hard to pull up any name as "beloved," in the 80s. Karen Berger was highly respected and built Vertigo; but "beloved" is not a term I have heard. She is also female, but that doesn't preclude working with other women, but it would be a stretch. You had guys like Andy Helfer and Kevin Dooley, Carlin, O'Neil, Dan Raspler, Joe Orlando (though I think he was promoted to other things, by the 80s), Berger, Len Wein, Roy Thomas, Mike Gold. Those are off the top of my head. Who knows? Archie Goodwin was "beloved," but, I never heard anyone say a bad thing about him, at any point in his career, male or female. I do know that in The Comic Book Rebels, Colleen Doran talked about an editor at a company (unnamed) booked her into his hotel room, at a convention and she slept in the hotel lobby, instead. She talked of being harassed (while underage, as she started, professionally, at 15) at conventions and would bring along her mother, to help shield her and they would harass her mother, too. She had several anecdotes, without naming names. Then, Richard Pini tried to steal her copyright, for A Distant Soil, as did Donning/Starblaze, when they did the albums. Pini had other fingers pointed at him over business practices, at WaRP, though just business and not harassment and I never came across any mention of such things relating to Wendy. I want to say that Mike Richardson's (Dark Horse publisher and owner) Between the Panels had something about a few notorious editors, including one who was a predator of underage girls, and another who liked to talk to young talent and claim he could make them a superstar. Gary Brodsky, of Solson (son of Sol Brodsky, hence the company name), was a real piece of work, even after imploding, in comics. Then, there is Gerard Jones. Crimson Avenger artist Greg Brooks murdered his wife, Elizabeth Kessler, but it got even weirder. Elizabeth Kessler wasn't her real name, but the identity of a college roommate! She also had a child from a previous relationship, who was in her mother's custody, that no one who worked with her (she did some coloring work at DC) knew about.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2023 20:23:32 GMT -5
Kind of went down a horrible rabbit hole on this. There is this article from The Mary Sue
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 24, 2023 20:26:25 GMT -5
D'Orazio mentions Eddie Berganza being in her corner behind the scenes - one of the first to warn her to "watch her back" around Carlin. Though I haven't really followed modern comics in over 20 years, I knew that name sounded familiar. A quick check confirms that, yep, Eddie Berganza also rose to prominence within the company becoming an Executive Editor in 2010 (after Carlin's period of harassment - well, period of harassment covered here) and, yep, Eddie Berganza too was accused of sexual harassment by multiple women. He was demoted in 2012 to Group Editor of the Superman and Wonder Woman titles after a series of incidents and if you want to know what DC did about the fact that as Group Editor he'd be in a position of power over women he could continue to sexually harass, here you go: In 2010, hearing that Berganza was up for a promotion, at least five people reported their concerns to Human Resources, with at least one saying she didn’t feel safe working with him. Regardless, DC promoted Berganza to executive editor a few months later. This meant that fewer people would be reporting to him, so it was a promotion that isolated him from most potential victims. But not all: A few months later, DC launched a reboot of its superhero universe. Marsham then was a coordinating editor, which required her to be in often daylong closed-door meetings with a handful of senior editorial staff — all men — including Berganza. She was horrified. She sought out Harras, the editor-in-chief, and asked if Berganza was now officially supervising every book in the DC Universe. Harras, who Marsham said knew about her encounter with Berganza, confirmed that he was. “You know I can’t edit books that [Berganza] has oversight on,” Marsham said she told Harras. “I guess I just won’t be able to edit any books.” Harras, she recalled, didn’t protest. He asked if she was OK with that. After that conversation, Marsham stopped editing books.
I don’t know anything about working at DC other than what I read on the internet, but if this is true, it’s pretty damning. If you have someone on staff that people don’t feel safe working with, the correct response is not to allow your staff to avoid him at the cost of their own careers. The correct response is to remove him or at the very least make it clear that he will be monitored at all times, and defend the rights of everyone else to do their jobs without harassment. DC apparently failed at this. As Alex De Campi wrote in 2015: Now, the Superman office allegedly employs no women, and a cursory glance over the mastheads of several Superman titles and Wonder Woman seems to confirm that allegation. The reason, I’ve been told by several people who work or used to work at DC, is because one of the most senior editors is a sexual harasser with multiple incidents on his HR file. Here’s what journalist and former DC staffer Heidi MacDonald had to say around the same time: There are at least three editors who worked at DC comics while I was there who had complaints filed against them with HR. I know this because the people who filed the reports told me this directly. Over the years very few female staffers would be hired by DC editorial and the constant weirdness and inappropriate behavior drove most of them away, or led them to question themselves so much that their work suffered and they had to leave. Because women can’t handle drawing superhero comics, you know. I was told that by my supervisor when I worked at DC. Yep.smashpages.net/2017/11/13/missing-the-point-the-eddie-berganza-story/Julie Schwartz, Mike Carlin, Eddie Berganza - you know something's wrong when Mort Weisigner starts looking like a saint in comparison to his successors.
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Post by MDG on Jun 24, 2023 21:16:13 GMT -5
The most alarming part for me is that, so far as I can find, DC never acknowledged any of these allegations, and Carlin retired with full honors just three months back. I certainly don't believe in condemning someone before all the facts have been aired, but for DC and Carlin to not even acknowledge these accusations is disturbing. Has anyone else come forward about Carlin in the five years since this was shared? If he had a long history of problems with female co-workers, it seems like someone should have. By the way, who is the beloved DC editor of the 1980s that D’Orazio refers to who had issues with women? I wouldn't want to speculate, without any evidence, as that gets pretty dangerous. I know Julie Schwartz was accused of harassing behaviors to women, by Jill Thompson, and others, but he was retired by the 80s and made their little ambassador to fandom (which I also heard just perpetuated things in conventions. As much as I admired Julie and had several great interactions with him at cons (and once on the street in NYC), he was the first person I thought of. Julie Schwartz, Mike Carlin, Eddie Berganza - you know something's wrong when Mort Weisigner starts looking like a saint in comparison to his successors. Probably because he was out of the picture long before this era.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 24, 2023 21:25:45 GMT -5
I feel like I need to wash my eyes and also want to bounce a few heads against some walls, before putting a foot 6 feet up their @$$.
Here's the thing; you might hear someone say, well why didn't you go to HR? HR Departments exist to protect the company, not the employees. If the company wants to bury this away, they will, instead of making examples of the perpetrators and exile them to some ice flow somewhere to die as the sad, pathetic little ba$%@&*s they are.
I saw too much of this kind of thing in the military, from an organizational myopia. We had to sit through the same , badly produced sexual harassment training film and it was just the most blatant examples of things, which anyone would recognize as harassment. And then people crack jokes that are insulting. The Tailhook incident occurs. For the uninitiated, the Tailhook Association was a group of naval aviators (John McCain was an early member) and they had these annual conventions with juvenile behavior. Normally, they had strippers and things for their amusement. Bad enough, but at least they are paid for putting up with these idiots. After the Gulf War victory, they had a huge gathering in Las Vegas, in a complex where a couple of professional conferences were going on. There were multiple accounts of harassment, from verbal to physical groping. There were hospitality suites with with leg shaving and other semi-intimate things going on. Women from other conferences were subjected to "gauntlets." An admiral's aid, a woman with a promising career, was assaulted. She went to the admiral and heard "boys will be boys." She wasn't taking that and took it up the chain of command. The noise led to investigations. The Secretary of the Navy had to resign, because they were in attendance. A couple of senior ranks had to resign. However, at the end of everything, the official report (which we got at Barnes & Nobel, after I first started working there), detailed all of the reported incidents (somewhere around 80 individual incidents). Not a single person faced a court martial. Nothing harsher than a letter of reprimand appeared in anyone's service record. The officers at the Naval Station, Charleston, had to assemble in the base auditorium for a lecture from the base commander, where he proceeded to make statements about junior officers not acting with decorum and such. I sat there and thought, but didn't voice, "What about all of the officers at or above the rank of lieutenant commander? There were tons of them, involved at every level. Junior officers follow the example set by their superiors, just as a child mimics the behavior of their parents. No one was holding leadership accountable. I was already soured on a military career after the Iowa incident and the cover-up and hatchet job that was the investigation and my own experiences on my first ship, with a dysfunctional wardroom. Tailhook cemented my decision (mostly it just confirmed what I had all but put in writing) that I didn't want to be a part of this organizational insanity. I knew plenty of professionals who did their job without being a-holes and predators; but, I wasn't proud of the organization that was running things, then.
I've seen this mentality at a couple of companies, at different levels. In one case, once upper management was aware, the situation was resolved. At another, they had bigger troubles and I got the hell out of there, before the whole thing collapsed on me. Dysfunctional organizations can really damage good people.
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lordyam
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Post by lordyam on Jun 24, 2023 21:52:17 GMT -5
Indeed. Again the problem is that society doesn't really take it seriously. None superhero stuff has the same problem. I was a big fan of Warcraft so learning how many of the people at Blizzard were sexist assholes and the sheer scale of what they did was heartbreaking.
ANY organization that's overly male dominated will have this problem.
It also doesn't help that people can be contradictory (Even Dan Didio had good moments like approving Jaime Reyes for instance). Geoff Johns has had both good and bad moments (he pushed for Iris West to be black in the flash show, but was resistant with Superman's grandfather on Krypton being black). People can be complicated.
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Post by zaku on Jun 25, 2023 1:04:11 GMT -5
My God.
It seems endemic in almost every type of entertainment industry.
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2023 1:19:15 GMT -5
My God. It seems endemic in almost every type of entertainment industry. Makes it hard to refute a woman believing that all men are monsters. I could never do the kinds of things we're talking about, and I'm willing to bet no one else here could either, but that's not easy to believe when you see how widespread these abuses were. Re: Carlin himself, I've really been stuck on this for a full day now. It's so damn upsetting. First off, sure, this is an allegation that no one has backed up and shouldn't be taken as absolute gospel, but 1. why would someone make this up?, 2. I spent enough time reading D’Orazio's social media posts over the past day to decide that I genuinely like and respect her, 3. Even if I didn't, it takes courage to come forward and usually comes at a great cost, so every allegation should be listened to and at least seriously considered, 4. DC and Carlin haven't even bothered to acknowledge these claims in the five years since they were made, 5. Even affording Carlin every reasonable doubt, attempting to see him as an awkward nerd in awe of a cute girl and not a predatory monster AND accepting the possibility that D’Orazio might have perceived intents that were not necessarily there and exaggerated awkward moments into menacing ones (already, I'm not sure I'm comfortable granting that much leniency), there's the issue that Carlin held D'Orazio's career in his hands and held her back, seemingly for no reason other than (at best) sexism or (at worst) retaliation and control. That may not have been the most upsetting/damaging part for D’Orazio, and it may not even be the most disgusting/disturbing part of what went on, but unless Carlin or DC issues a response indicating that there were legitimate reasons why she was never promoted, it's certainly the most damning aspect of this whole thing. Chalk anything else up to some extreme misunderstanding -- there's no getting around the unjustified damage purposefully done to her career. In the best case scenario, Carlin is a mysogynist who comes off far more predatory to women he is attracted to than he realizes. He still traumatized this person and seriously damaged her career. And it seems like the allegations of racism towards him have been substantiated by several other people too. Funny. My very idea of gender equality was shaped by his office. Lois was a powerful woman and her relationship with Clark felt very equal; they were both powerful go-getters in their own way. Heck, his office even did the subplot where Cat Grant was getting sexually harrassed at Newstime. How the hell could those kinds of messages be sent by an office allowing these kinds of things to go on? It's really going to make it hard as I continue forward with these reviews, now understanding just how slimy this enviroment was for non-white non-males. I wonder if Simonson felt/sensed any of this. Perhaps her being married to a legend in the business, as well as coming in with a reputation far more impressive than anyone else's in that office (including Carlin) made her immune to it? I did note in the first handful of Man of Steel stories that it seemed like Simonson had been left out of some of the planning sessions, though.
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Post by zaku on Jun 25, 2023 1:26:29 GMT -5
My God. It seems endemic in almost every type of entertainment industry. Makes it hard to refute a woman believing that all men are monsters. I could never do the kinds of things we're talking about, and I'm willing to bet no one else here could either, but that's not easy to believe when you see how widespread these abuses were. Re: Carlin himself, I've really been stuck on this for a full day now. It's so damn upsetting. First off, sure, this is an allegation that no one has backed up and shouldn't be taken as absolute gospel, but 1. why would someone make this up?, 2. I spent enough time reading D’Orazio's social media posts over the past day to decide that I genuinely like and respect her, 3. Even if I didn't, it takes courage to come forward and usually comes at a great cost, so every allegation should be listened to and at least seriously considered, 4. DC and Carlin haven't even bothered to acknowledge these claims in the five years since they were made, 5. Even affording Carlin every reasonable doubt, attempting to see him as an awkward nerd in awe of a cute girl and not a predatory monster AND accepting the possibility that D’Orazio might have perceived intents that were not necessarily there and exaggerated awkward moments into menacing ones (already, I'm not sure I'm comfortable granting that much leniency), there's the issue that Carlin held D'Orazio's career in his hands and held her back, seemingly for no reason other than (at best) sexism or (at worst) retaliation and control. That may not have been the most upsetting/damaging part for D’Orazio, and it may not even be the most disgusting/disturbing part of what went on, but unless Carlin or DC issues a response indicating that there were legitimate reasons why she was never promoted, it's certainly the most damning aspect of this whole thing. Chalk anything else up to some extreme misunderstanding -- there's no getting around the unjustified damage purposefully done to her career. And if this isn't enough, there are toxic movement like Comicsgate. Women were harassed because they were drinking a milkshake! www.themarysue.com/marvel-editor-harassed-for-selfie/Sometimes the worst stereotypes about comic book readers (men-boys unable to relate socially etc etc) have some basis in reality...
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