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Post by zaku on Jun 19, 2023 2:25:22 GMT -5
Some things from Byrne's run worked well; Luthor as a corporate shark was brilliant. Yes, but that concept came from Wolfman, not Byrne. It's been a while since I've read it (and, being a Byrne story, it isn't one I'm excited to return to), but I thought I remembered the issue being that Superman didn't need to kill them. The crime was already done. Killing them was something he did out of a desire for revenge. Well, didn't they rationalize it in later issues that he really didn't other alternatives? (I read these comics literally decades ago). |
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Post by zaku on Jun 19, 2023 2:35:42 GMT -5
I would like to point out that I am personally against the death penalty. My point is that simply, as the situation was presented in the comic, he had no other alternative and therefore the choice of him was somewhat justified (from his point of view). I remember him having imagined some alternatives. Leaving them in the Pocket Dimension was equivalent to killing them all the same, bringing them into his dimension was too great a danger. If for some reason they regained their powers, they would end up with three criminals with pre-Crisis Kryptonian powers. It would have been a massacre before they could stop them ETA: found it!  |
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Post by badwolf on Jun 19, 2023 10:31:40 GMT -5
It's been a while since I've read it (and, being a Byrne story, it isn't one I'm excited to return to), but I thought I remembered the issue being that Superman didn't need to kill them. The crime was already done. Killing them was something he did out of a desire for revenge. You think they would have stopped there? |
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Post by badwolf on Jun 19, 2023 10:33:34 GMT -5
This isn't to say it should be a matter of course. But in the case of people like Zod, Darkseid, or Brainiac I can see killing be on the table (hell Supes DOES kill Darkseid in final crisis). Batman killed Darkseid in Final Crisis. |
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Post by lordyam on Jun 19, 2023 12:22:27 GMT -5
This isn't to say it should be a matter of course. But in the case of people like Zod, Darkseid, or Brainiac I can see killing be on the table (hell Supes DOES kill Darkseid in final crisis). Batman killed Darkseid in Final Crisis. He obliterates Darkseid’s soul. That’s kinda the same |
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Post by badwolf on Jun 19, 2023 12:32:59 GMT -5
Batman killed Darkseid in Final Crisis. He obliterates Darkseid’s soul. That’s kinda the same Hnh. I don't remember that bit. Just Batman using the same bullet that killed Orion on Darkseid. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 19, 2023 18:32:51 GMT -5
The moment in question from Superman #22:  I never found this all that controversial or even interesting since while Byrne does have his Superman kill, there's no moral dilemma here since Byrne is stacking his bases ethically, logically, and even legally so much so that no one's going to doubt Superman's actions here. I do like the "as the last representative of law and justice on this world, it falls to me..." bit however. Even if Superman had been personally inclined to spare their lives for whatever reason, the fact that Zod and the others murdered every single person on that planet meant that Superman either had to act as judge, jury, and executioner - in which case a death sentence would have been a no-brainer - or actually admit that by murdering every potential judge and/or juror on the planet Zod had secured his own freedom. Superman isn't therefore following his own rules here, but instead seeing to it that the rules which would have been followed had there been anyone else around to enforce them are being resolved to the only outcome possible. |
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Post by zaku on Jun 20, 2023 6:54:47 GMT -5
The moment in question from Superman #22: I never found this all that controversial or even interesting since while Byrne does have his Superman kill, there's no moral dilemma here since Byrne is stacking his bases ethically, logically, and even legally so much so that no one's going to doubt Superman's actions here. I do like the "as the last representative of law and justice on this world, it falls to me..." bit however. Even if Superman had been personally inclined to spare their lives for whatever reason, the fact that Zod and the others murdered every single person on that planet meant that Superman either had to act as judge, jury, and executioner - in which case a death sentence would have been a no-brainer - or actually admit that by murdering every potential judge and/or juror on the planet Zod had secured his own freedom. Superman isn't therefore following his own rules here, but instead seeing to it that the rules which would have been followed had there been anyone else around to enforce them are being resolved to the only outcome possible. Like I said, he even pondered the alternatives but from his point of view they weren't feasible. Indeed, he has concocted a situation so absurd and extreme that it looks more like one of those paradoxes people debate in some university academic discussion. One of those you put a staunch supporter of the abolition of the death penalty in front of: "Okay, if the death penalty is always wrong, how about if someone exterminates all of humanity except one person and that person sentences him to death , huh? CHECK MATE!" |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 21, 2023 11:18:16 GMT -5
It's interesting to me that, while most of the Byrne run has been referenced and returned to in the Ordway/Stern/Jurgens/Simonson Era, one thing they have not yet referenced (even years after the fact) is the killing and subsequent Gangbuster dual persona. I have to wonder if those writers (and/or perhaps Carlin) found that portion of Byrne's run even more unfortunate than the Sleaze/Barda episode.
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Post by lordyam on Jun 21, 2023 11:27:48 GMT -5
Carlin himself has been credibly accused of being a sexual predator so it would have to be REALLY bad.
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Post by zaku on Jun 21, 2023 11:52:24 GMT -5
It's interesting to me that, while most of the Byrne run has been referenced and returned to in the Ordway/Stern/Jurgens/Simonson Era, one thing they have not yet referenced (even years after the fact) is the killing and subsequent Gangbuster dual persona. I have to wonder if those writers (and/or perhaps Carlin) found that portion of Byrne's run even more unfortunate than the Sleaze/Barda episode. The very last reference to executed Phantom Zone criminals that I could find (According to DC Wiki) is in Action Comics #797. Then, if I remember correctly the whole pocket universe saga was retconned away because in some cosmic reboot Time Master no longer needed to create a Superboy yadda yadda yadda |
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Post by badwolf on Jun 21, 2023 11:59:55 GMT -5
The moment in question from Superman #22: I never found this all that controversial or even interesting since while Byrne does have his Superman kill, there's no moral dilemma here since Byrne is stacking his bases ethically, logically, and even legally so much so that no one's going to doubt Superman's actions here. I do like the "as the last representative of law and justice on this world, it falls to me..." bit however. Even if Superman had been personally inclined to spare their lives for whatever reason, the fact that Zod and the others murdered every single person on that planet meant that Superman either had to act as judge, jury, and executioner - in which case a death sentence would have been a no-brainer - or actually admit that by murdering every potential judge and/or juror on the planet Zod had secured his own freedom. Superman isn't therefore following his own rules here, but instead seeing to it that the rules which would have been followed had there been anyone else around to enforce them are being resolved to the only outcome possible. Thanks for posting that. I was pretty sure they had made some kind of threat to continue their actions elsewhere, but I didn't have the comic here to check. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 21, 2023 12:49:03 GMT -5
It's interesting to me that, while most of the Byrne run has been referenced and returned to in the Ordway/Stern/Jurgens/Simonson Era, one thing they have not yet referenced (even years after the fact) is the killing and subsequent Gangbuster dual persona. I have to wonder if those writers (and/or perhaps Carlin) found that portion of Byrne's run even more unfortunate than the Sleaze/Barda episode. After Zero Hour each DC title (or perhaps character) got to retcon one aspect of their continuity. In Batman's case, the status quo changed such that Batman was and had always been thought of as an urban legend. It becomes really obvious in the titles shortly thereafter. In Superman's case, I believe that the pocket universe Superboy was used as their one adjustment to history. The killing of the Phantom Zone criminals gets mentioned in Superman/Aliens and one of the annuals (Superman Annual #10, 1996) from what I recall, but you're right, I can't think of it being revisited before 1996 or so. As for how the Pocket Universe Superboy ceased to exist but the Phantom Zone villians didn't - I don't have an answer. I suspect that it was a case of "We're just not going to reference the details of that story other than 'Superman once met and had to execute some Kryptonians from a pocket universe'. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 21, 2023 12:51:46 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that. I was pretty sure they had made some kind of threat to continue their actions elsewhere, but I didn't have the comic here to check. Again - another example of Byrne heavily stacking the deck in favor of killing The Phantom Zoners. If you're looking for leniency it's probably not a good idea to tell the judge just before sentencing "I'm going to kill you, your family, and everyone on your planet. The defense rests." |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 21, 2023 13:53:08 GMT -5
Carlin himself has been credibly accused of being a sexual predator so it would have to be REALLY bad. More info, please? |
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