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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 14:18:27 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see what, if any, of the Republicans will stand against Trump, or whether they'll wuss out and leave him a free run towards a re-election campaign. Dems stand a big chance of shooting each other in the foot and letter the orange clown back in, imho
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 20, 2019 14:41:37 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see what, if any, of the Republicans will stand against Trump, or whether they'll wuss out and leave him a free run towards a re-election campaign. Dems stand a big chance of shooting each other in the foot and letter the orange clown back in, imho I have a feeling they will leave him twisting in the wind and expect to take a loss in 2020 and focus on the Congressional races, to try to take back the house and keep a majority in the Senate. Then, focus on a contender for 2024. Typing those numbers makes me feel really old! If my childhood cartoons were correct, we should be working on the construction of a Sealab..
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Post by Pharozonk on Mar 20, 2019 15:08:38 GMT -5
I said among friends, and on FB: I'm totally all in for Biden/Beto ticket but would also be fine with Beto/Harris (or vice versa, but think it's a stronger ticket with Harris as VP) I think if the candidate for President is a man, the VP candidate will almost certainly be a woman. Otherwise, the progressives will see it as just more business as usual. I could live with a Biden/Klobuchar ticket, but I'm far more centrist than most around here. O'Rourke is a lightweight flash-in-the-pan, and I don't want folks like Harris, Gillibrand, Sanders, or Warren anywhere near the WH (too far radical for my tastes). Harris is pretty centrist.
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Post by impulse on Mar 20, 2019 15:12:24 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see what, if any, of the Republicans will stand against Trump, or whether they'll wuss out and leave him a free run towards a re-election campaign. Dems stand a big chance of shooting each other in the foot and letter the orange clown back in, imho I think Trump has the Democrat base sufficiently united to vote for whoever gets the name without fighting to the bitter end like in 2016.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 20, 2019 16:11:26 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see what, if any, of the Republicans will stand against Trump, or whether they'll wuss out and leave him a free run towards a re-election campaign. Dems stand a big chance of shooting each other in the foot and letter the orange clown back in, imho I think Trump has the Democrat base sufficiently united to vote for whoever gets the name without fighting to the bitter end like in 2016. Never underestimate Democrats ability to screw up a sure thing.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 20, 2019 16:39:07 GMT -5
I think Trump has the Democrat base sufficiently united to vote for whoever gets the name without fighting to the bitter end like in 2016. Never underestimate Democrats ability to screw up a sure thing. To snatch defeat from the jaws of certain victory is also typical of my favourite hockey team. It never gets any easier to bear.
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2019 17:20:30 GMT -5
I get that Sanders/Warren etc, are more progressive than you care for, but calling them radical is a total misnomer. They are not radical in terms of American history within the last 100 years and absolutely not radical at all from a global perspective. It might not seem like a big deal to you, but loaded words like that overcharge the dialogue and make it harder to have real discussions. I reject this statement wholeheartedly and call you out on your hypocrisy. You're attempting to regulate the language that I use in order to steer the debate in the direction you want it to go, all under the guise of trying to have "real discussions". Telling me that my opinion is wrong and my words are "loaded" is the exact opposite of having a "real discussion", because you are artificially creating the parameters under which I have to operate; in order to have the conversation, I have to change my central belief to fit your rules. Why am I not allowed to feel that they are "too radical" for my liking? Can you also tell me what is "too hot", "too cold", "too spicy", or "too loud" for me, because those are all subjective opinions of a personal nature as well? If you're afraid of the words I'm using and feel you have to manipulate them to alter or quiet the ideas behind them, then you aren't actually interested in having a real discussion and only in selling your narrative. As well, I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR RANKING OR PLACE ON THE SPECTRUM OF HISTORICAL OR GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE. I live in the United States of America in 2019, and I care first and foremost about the leaders in the United States of America in 2019. I want a centrist government, a little more liberal on social issues and a little more conservative on fiscal issues, one that meets the needs of the majority of the citizens and doesn't make those of us who sit in the middle feel like weirdos because we haven't raced to the far edges with the rest of the lunatics. There is absolutely nothing that has come out of Elizabeth Warren's mouth yet in this election cycle that doesn't sound like full-blown radicalism. From ultra-taxing the rich, to free college for all, to breaking up Amazon, Facebook, and Google, and her new one, reparations for slavery, these are all designed to stir the far left progressive wing of the Democratic Party into a lather, while making those of us in the middle cringe. We don't want the entire apple cart upset, just fixed up a little bit, put back on the road, and ready to get apples to everyone.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 20, 2019 19:46:38 GMT -5
I get that Sanders/Warren etc, are more progressive than you care for, but calling them radical is a total misnomer. They are not radical in terms of American history within the last 100 years and absolutely not radical at all from a global perspective. It might not seem like a big deal to you, but loaded words like that overcharge the dialogue and make it harder to have real discussions. I reject this statement wholeheartedly and call you out on your hypocrisy. You're attempting to regulate the language that I use in order to steer the debate in the direction you want it to go, all under the guise of trying to have "real discussions". Telling me that my opinion is wrong and my words are "loaded" is the exact opposite of having a "real discussion", because you are artificially creating the parameters under which I have to operate; in order to have the conversation, I have to change my central belief to fit your rules. Why am I not allowed to feel that they are "too radical" for my liking? Can you also tell me what is "too hot", "too cold", "too spicy", or "too loud" for me, because those are all subjective opinions of a personal nature as well? If you're afraid of the words I'm using and feel you have to manipulate them to alter or quiet the ideas behind them, then you aren't actually interested in having a real discussion and only in selling your narrative. As well, I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR RANKING OR PLACE ON THE SPECTRUM OF HISTORICAL OR GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE. I live in the United States of America in 2019, and I care first and foremost about the leaders in the United States of America in 2019. I want a centrist government, a little more liberal on social issues and a little more conservative on fiscal issues, one that meets the needs of the majority of the citizens and doesn't make those of us who sit in the middle feel like weirdos because we haven't raced to the far edges with the rest of the lunatics. There is absolutely nothing that has come out of Elizabeth Warren's mouth yet in this election cycle that doesn't sound like full-blown radicalism. From ultra-taxing the rich, to free college for all, to breaking up Amazon, Facebook, and Google, and her new one, reparations for slavery, these are all designed to stir the far left progressive wing of the Democratic Party into a lather, while making those of us in the middle cringe. We don't want the entire apple cart upset, just fixed up a little bit, put back on the road, and ready to get apples to everyone. How about her response when asked if Mississippi's state flag should be changed to eliminate the Stars and Bars? "Yes." How about when she was asked if she is a socialist? "I believe in markets. But I believe in markets with rules. Markets without rules is theft." And why is breaking up any of the entities you mentioned so radical, Cap? Even if the will or the means are not available just yet, why wouldn't you at least want to be able to at least begin the conversation about regulating them? You don't negotiate for your salary by asking for less than you're making now. And say this for Warren: her policy ideas are at least spelled out in detail. Compare with many another candidate for the nomination.
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Post by beccabear67 on Mar 20, 2019 20:28:29 GMT -5
I would say there have been a few grand visions by Democrat contenders reaching farther than reality will ever actually allow for them to be implemented, and in some cases beyond the speaker's experience to seriously implement. They are going to try and get people in a panic about socialism but you have it already, it's all a question of where and how much the same as with needed regulations and rules (where I hope they can implement or restore). There is a base of let's get rid of things like copyrights or let's have totally free this or an absolute end to homelessness or hunger... don't worry they will find out I would say (while still waiting for the no gun restrictions and yuuge wall people to find out what they have to find out). This is mostly just the stage things are at where there are people saddling up a big idea to stand out. Later is a stage of trying to find wider appeal. It's really early. I'm certainly glad there are these people involved, much better than the total self-interest ego types or the religious fanatics, even though a number of them wouldn't be my choice for president (although any of them versus the present occupant).
Wanting a centrist in terms of the U.S. is too generic though, it's got to be a smart centrist, not one enabling the same old crooks to have a lockhold on certain areas. I'm not sure if Biden is or isn't, he can be a bigmouth in a Trump sense but if his heart is in the right place I can look at that as being for a good cause... still, sometimes he speaks a bit too freely in a way that doesn't do anything (molehill to the present man-mountain there obviously). I have some trust a respect for him. Bernie is ranked at number two and as I didn't want an Independent before (not practical) I still don't, not even as veep. I don't think he'd be much more than another Carter frankly, at odds with both parties, unable to do much but make speeches. If it happened I can think of much worse people though. Elizabeth Warren, another great at a lower level but I don't want at the top. I'm still getting to learn about the rest. Jay Inslee as well even though I remember him from Washington state news and affairs.
Off topic, but why is Elizabeth Warren not native at 3% when it used to be even 'a drop' used to qualify people as colored at one time socially and legally? What a non-issue if the Republicans focus on that advantage they say she took. I know the advantage so many of these Bush and Trump people have had from birth and how they have used it to the hilt in various ways for their own self service! I am a bit of a natural skeptic to any altruism anyway, am astonished there could be any Trump believers left, and for any of these crusaders of the left I have I hope a healthy skepticism.
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Post by The Captain on Mar 21, 2019 6:13:08 GMT -5
I reject this statement wholeheartedly and call you out on your hypocrisy. You're attempting to regulate the language that I use in order to steer the debate in the direction you want it to go, all under the guise of trying to have "real discussions". Telling me that my opinion is wrong and my words are "loaded" is the exact opposite of having a "real discussion", because you are artificially creating the parameters under which I have to operate; in order to have the conversation, I have to change my central belief to fit your rules. Why am I not allowed to feel that they are "too radical" for my liking? Can you also tell me what is "too hot", "too cold", "too spicy", or "too loud" for me, because those are all subjective opinions of a personal nature as well? If you're afraid of the words I'm using and feel you have to manipulate them to alter or quiet the ideas behind them, then you aren't actually interested in having a real discussion and only in selling your narrative. As well, I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR RANKING OR PLACE ON THE SPECTRUM OF HISTORICAL OR GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE. I live in the United States of America in 2019, and I care first and foremost about the leaders in the United States of America in 2019. I want a centrist government, a little more liberal on social issues and a little more conservative on fiscal issues, one that meets the needs of the majority of the citizens and doesn't make those of us who sit in the middle feel like weirdos because we haven't raced to the far edges with the rest of the lunatics. There is absolutely nothing that has come out of Elizabeth Warren's mouth yet in this election cycle that doesn't sound like full-blown radicalism. From ultra-taxing the rich, to free college for all, to breaking up Amazon, Facebook, and Google, and her new one, reparations for slavery, these are all designed to stir the far left progressive wing of the Democratic Party into a lather, while making those of us in the middle cringe. We don't want the entire apple cart upset, just fixed up a little bit, put back on the road, and ready to get apples to everyone. How about her response when asked if Mississippi's state flag should be changed to eliminate the Stars and Bars? "Yes." How about when she was asked if she is a socialist? "I believe in markets. But I believe in markets with rules. Markets without rules is theft." And why is breaking up any of the entities you mentioned so radical, Cap? Even if the will or the means are not available just yet, why wouldn't you at least want to be able to at least begin the conversation about regulating them? You don't negotiate for your salary by asking for less than you're making now. And say this for Warren: her policy ideas are at least spelled out in detail. Compare with many another candidate for the nomination. The first answer is a no-brainer, and the second answer is a dodge of the actual question. If that impresses people, then our standards for our leaders are way too low. She didn't say regulate; she said break up. I'm not a believer that government should be interfering in how businesses operate, because it's rarely done from a fact-based position and almost-always from an ideologically-driven place. It's what leads someone like AOC to chase away Google, then naively say that NYC can create 25K jobs through mom-and-pops, while at the same time pushing for higher minimum wages, which adversely affect mom-and-pops because they don't generate the kind of revenue larger businesses do. You can't base economic policy on feelings, and what I see from folks like Warrren and Sanders is stoking of class envy against those big mean rich people, where they advocate getting back at successful people on behalf of the little guy through confiscation and redistribution. And I'm actually glad that Warren is being so forthcoming with her policy ideas, because people will know exactly what they would be getting and will hopefully stay far away from her.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 21, 2019 9:43:41 GMT -5
I get that Sanders/Warren etc, are more progressive than you care for, but calling them radical is a total misnomer. They are not radical in terms of American history within the last 100 years and absolutely not radical at all from a global perspective. It might not seem like a big deal to you, but loaded words like that overcharge the dialogue and make it harder to have real discussions. There is absolutely nothing that has come out of Elizabeth Warren's mouth yet in this election cycle that doesn't sound like full-blown radicalism. From ultra-taxing the rich, to free college for all, to breaking up Amazon, Facebook, and Google, and her new one, reparations for slavery, these are all designed to stir the far left progressive wing of the Democratic Party into a lather, while making those of us in the middle cringe. We don't want the entire apple cart upset, just fixed up a little bit, put back on the road, and ready to get apples to everyone. Your definition of radicalism is pretty reactionary. The marginal tax rates that are being proposed still aren't as high as they were from 1951-1963 during which time that well-known radical Dwight Eisenhower was President. We certainly wouldn't want to go back to the fiscal policies that allowed the Interstate Highway System and the development of NASA. I'm not saying that Amazon, Facebook or Google need to be broken up. But if that idea is radical then the break-up of The Bell System (under radical Nixon) and Standard Oil (under Roosevelt and extreme radical Taft) must rock your world. Free college is so radical that it's been adopted by such rogue nations as Germany, France, Malta (those sneaky buggers), Norway, Finland, Slovenia and other hotbeds of radicalism.
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Post by The Captain on Mar 21, 2019 10:22:01 GMT -5
There is absolutely nothing that has come out of Elizabeth Warren's mouth yet in this election cycle that doesn't sound like full-blown radicalism. From ultra-taxing the rich, to free college for all, to breaking up Amazon, Facebook, and Google, and her new one, reparations for slavery, these are all designed to stir the far left progressive wing of the Democratic Party into a lather, while making those of us in the middle cringe. We don't want the entire apple cart upset, just fixed up a little bit, put back on the road, and ready to get apples to everyone. Your definition of radicalism is pretty reactionary. The marginal tax rates that are being proposed still aren't as high as they were from 1951-1963 during which time that well-known radical Dwight Eisenhower was President. We certainly wouldn't want to go back to the fiscal policies that allowed the Interstate Highway System and the development of NASA. I'm not saying that Amazon, Facebook or Google need to be broken up. But if that idea is radical then the break-up of The Bell System (under radical Nixon) and Standard Oil (under Roosevelt and extreme radical Taft) must rock your world. Free college is so radical that it's been adopted by such rogue nations as Germany, France, Malta (those sneaky buggers), Norway, Finland, Slovenia and other hotbeds of radicalism. The "free college" in other countries comes with a catch that US proponents of it never mention. In Germany, they place all students into an academic track starting at age 10 (or 12, in Berlin and Brandenburg). They essentially determine if a student will go to college, technical school, or vocational school before they would be out of 5th grade in the US. Only about 30% of German students attend university, which is free if they attend a public university. So, how well do you think that would go over here in the US? You think Johnny's parents are going to be OK hearing their kid is no better than vo-tech level, or how about Sally's parents when they tell her that her ceiling is accountant and she will go to technical school? How long until special-interest groups are screaming about discrimination against their constituents despite empirical data (such as standardized testing scores) that show a minority or female or LGBTQ student is best suited to be something less than a university student? The devil is ALWAYS in the details.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 21, 2019 10:55:43 GMT -5
Your definition of radicalism is pretty reactionary. The marginal tax rates that are being proposed still aren't as high as they were from 1951-1963 during which time that well-known radical Dwight Eisenhower was President. We certainly wouldn't want to go back to the fiscal policies that allowed the Interstate Highway System and the development of NASA. I'm not saying that Amazon, Facebook or Google need to be broken up. But if that idea is radical then the break-up of The Bell System (under radical Nixon) and Standard Oil (under Roosevelt and extreme radical Taft) must rock your world. Free college is so radical that it's been adopted by such rogue nations as Germany, France, Malta (those sneaky buggers), Norway, Finland, Slovenia and other hotbeds of radicalism. The "free college" in other countries comes with a catch that US proponents of it never mention. In Germany, they place all students into an academic track starting at age 10 (or 12, in Berlin and Brandenburg). They essentially determine if a student will go to college, technical school, or vocational school before they would be out of 5th grade in the US. Only about 30% of German students attend university, which is free if they attend a public university. So, how well do you think that would go over here in the US? You think Johnny's parents are going to be OK hearing their kid is no better than vo-tech level, or how about Sally's parents when they tell her that her ceiling is accountant and she will go to technical school? How long until special-interest groups are screaming about discrimination against their constituents despite empirical data (such as standardized testing scores) that show a minority or female or LGBTQ student is best suited to be something less than a university student? The devil is ALWAYS in the details. But nobody's proposed that kind of approach to the college tuition issue. Assuming that someone will is akin to the notion that "death panels" would be doling out medical care. (Something private insurance companies do quite a bit of, actually.) We're talking about tuition to state schools, Captain. Nobody's talking about room and board anywhere or tuition at private universities. As I've written before, this kind of program could actually usher in a new respect for and interest in "voke-tech" education, especially in community colleges, which are paying the price for the fascination with 4-year colleges for everyone. By the standards you're applying to Warren, the GI Bill, Social Security and Medicare are all radical and therefore tabu to mainstream America.
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Post by impulse on Mar 21, 2019 11:07:34 GMT -5
I think Trump has the Democrat base sufficiently united to vote for whoever gets the name without fighting to the bitter end like in 2016. Never underestimate Democrats ability to screw up a sure thing. Sigh. You're not wrong.
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Post by The Captain on Mar 21, 2019 11:25:03 GMT -5
The "free college" in other countries comes with a catch that US proponents of it never mention. In Germany, they place all students into an academic track starting at age 10 (or 12, in Berlin and Brandenburg). They essentially determine if a student will go to college, technical school, or vocational school before they would be out of 5th grade in the US. Only about 30% of German students attend university, which is free if they attend a public university. So, how well do you think that would go over here in the US? You think Johnny's parents are going to be OK hearing their kid is no better than vo-tech level, or how about Sally's parents when they tell her that her ceiling is accountant and she will go to technical school? How long until special-interest groups are screaming about discrimination against their constituents despite empirical data (such as standardized testing scores) that show a minority or female or LGBTQ student is best suited to be something less than a university student? The devil is ALWAYS in the details. But nobody's proposed that kind of approach to the college tuition issue. Assuming that someone will is akin to the notion that "death panels" would be doling out medical care. (Something private insurance companies do quite a bit of, actually.) We're talking about tuition to state schools, Captain. Nobody's talking about room and board anywhere or tuition at private universities. As I've written before, this kind of program could actually usher in a new respect for and interest in "voke-tech" education, especially in community colleges, which are paying the price for the fascination with 4-year colleges for everyone. By the standards you're applying to Warren, the GI Bill, Social Security and Medicare are all radical and therefore tabu to mainstream America. No, my dear Prince, I understand that no one has proposed that style system here. I was writing that folks who argue for "free college" by citing European countries as examples never mention that the "free college" isn't given to everyone there. Not everyone is college material, and those who aren't should be directed to careers more suited to their talent and intellectual levels instead of being told the lie that they can be anything they want, but that is too cruel for the US, where everyone's kid is a special little snowflake. As for it being done here, it isn't "free" because someone has to pay for it, and that will be people who are seen as more successful than others. Again, more confiscation and redistribution, unfairly impacting people who are too successful to qualify for the freebies (or who have no interest in sending their kids to state schools) but who aren't so successful that they don't actually feel the increased taxes. Your final statement about Warren is a mixed bag. For the GI Bill, those folks trade service for education, which is fine. I don't agree with Social Security, because I won't get out what I put in and would rather be allowed to keep my 6.25% every two weeks to invest for myself. Medicare is fine, I suppose, but wanting to expand it put to everyone will raise taxes and lower the quality and accessibility of care for everyone.
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