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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 10, 2018 16:15:45 GMT -5
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Post by impulse on Dec 10, 2018 18:36:50 GMT -5
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 10, 2018 19:40:48 GMT -5
Roquefort Raider , I think you know how much I respect your opinions, based as they inevitably are on reason and erudition. However, for maybe the first time I can think of, I have to disagree with you re Jordan Peterson. No need to go into chapter and verse here, because there’s enough by and about Peterson (including the video you imbedded, which I had seen) that’s easily available on-line. “Look at the outcome and infer the motivation.” Peterson, apparently by way of Jung, offers this statement as the means to try to understand an individual’s actions. As a teacher, I look at Peterson as someone who uses his position in the front of the classroom as part therapy, part ego trip, the kind of teacher who has let his position go to his head. Anyone who has ever spent time speaking to a group, let alone teaching young people, from the elementary grades to college is, or should be, aware of how easily that position of authority can be abused. He’s well versed in in his version of things, introduces observations with provisos like, “One thing that may have happened, and I don’t know this for sure, but it’s interesting to consider…” You’re an educator; you don’t get to mix fantasy with fact to prove your points or scratch your itch. Imagine saying to your students, “One thing that may have happened is that gods from other more advanced planets landed on Earth in ancient times and helped the Egyptians to build the pyramids. Now I don’t know this for sure, but it’s interesting to consider because it goes a long way to explaining many of those ancient carvings that look like spaceships.” Yeah, it is interesting to consider when you’re reading The Eternals by Jack Kirby, but not when given equal weight with actual science by a science teacher. That’s just how Peterson interjects an uncited study that demonstrates that “since women have been taking the Pill, their preference for less masculine men is more pronounced, and that (not sure what exactly “that’s antecedent is) and that could easily be one of the things that’s fuelling at least some of the tension that exists now, politically, between men and women.” I’m no scientist, but even I know these terms are at best squishy. (I’m being kind. (“Less masculine men?” “Since women have started using the pill?” “Political tension”? Yeah, those are easily described, precise parameters…). And forget the weasel words (“At least some;” “that could easily be;” “may have happened;”), which have no place in a classroom. At worst -- and Peterson lives here; it’s where he makes all of his big cannonball-style splashes into pop culture – they’re just another part of Peterson’s tired rant about the male threatened by all Jung’s devouring mother in this god-awful culturally Marxist world that the left has given us, full of transgendered people who demand that we refer to them with bizarre pronouns that we just don’t like, dammit, and littered with the damaged psyches of all those Iron Johns who never have been able to fulfill the destinies genetically and culturally pre-ordained to them in primitive times. This is a man who just happens to be a darling “scholar” of the alt-right, happy to have his picture taken with angry young white men and their Pepe the frog mascot; happy to salt his inane self-help philosophy and political ramblings with the kinds of words that get the alt-right neo-Nazi types in an erotic dither: “cultural Marxists;” “leftists;” “fifth columnists;” happy to repeat the tired saw that academia is uninspiring and conformist, because it is the domain of progressives; happy to rage against political correctness. Like Trump, whom he resembles in so many ways, Peterson always pleads culpable deniability about his cultlike following. He claims to be unaware of the code words, and the dog-whistles he emits. He says Hitler was evil; yeah, he does sometimes, but he also says that Hitler was only giving the people what they wanted, that he was in following what the German people in their collective unconscious were expressing t him. Yeah, Hitler was bad, but he had this thing about cleanliness that he just took too far. And he was lying – bad Hitler! -- because he really didn’t want to win the war but kill Jews. And he was stupid, because if he had only been a little smarter, he could have done both! I’ve gone on way too long. Couldn't help going all chapter and verse on this after all. We’ll have to agree to disagree, mon ami. À chacun son goût, I guess. But I return to his own suggested criterion: “Look at the outcome and infer the motivation.” The outcome of Peterson’s half-baked Randian anti-feminine, just this side of anti-Semitic “wisdom?” Division, discord, and the enabling of hate. I’m inferring a far darker motivation, I guess. That’s an interesting analysis, Prince Hal, but we shall indeed have to agree to disagree. While I do not view Peterson as a philosopher for the ages the way many of his fans do, I find most of what he says to be very sensical... in the most mundane, common sensical way. His self-help book, for example, offers the most basic advice possible, with no secret recipe: if one wants to make the world better, one should start with oneself (the famous “clean up your room” line). And to make one’s life better, it is easier to take the steps to make it so than to wait for exterior forces to take care of things. His view that it is easier to find happiness by embracing and fulfilling one’s responsibilities than by chasing hapiness itself strikes me as both sensible and very true (though a bit stiff-necked). While I find his advices sort of obvious, it seems to have resonated with enough people that I must conclude these hadn’t managed to reach such conclusions on their own. It’s like that old doctor joke : “Doc, it hurts when I do this.” “Then stop doing it”. I find no harmful message in his rather bland counseling, only an invitation to practice self-discipline. I find no promotion of hatred in Peterson’s words either. His musings on evil and its source are arguable, but rarely groundless. He is absolutely right on that point: most of us would not have been members of the French resistance or of any group that resisted Hitler. Edmund Burke was spot on when saying that it was good people doing nothing that allowed evil to prevail. Was Hitler really obsessed with order? Is that what drew him to murder millions of people? I have no idea, but whether it’s true or not does not absolve him in the least; he still devoted massive resources (and led to the destruction of his own country) in pursuit of that terrible goal... with the almost unanimous assent of his people. He did give his people what the people was led to believe it wanted, and that is the true power of the populist. Hitler’s tale is one that has to be analyzed and analyzed again, so that we may learn from it and never allow such evil to bloom again (which is precisely why Peterson devotes so much time on the issue, and on Soviet Russia). To try to understand it is not to excuse it. Regarding the weasel words you mention, I partly agree... but that’s because I work in the natural sciences, where it’s much easier to quantify a degree of certainty about anything. In the social sciences, there must perforce be a lot of “it might be that”, “some think that” or “in certain cases, this is observed”, since a lot of the work appears to be based on interpretation of multivariant analyses and not on controlled, single variant experiments. It’s why I consider any statement by a social scientist to be far more subject to interpretation than one by a geologist, which might be unfair to the social scientist, but seems reasonable given the material studied. While Peterson probably presents ideas as factual when he shoud stress that he’s just extrapolating, in that sense he does not differ from many of his colleagues who push far more outlandish concepts with just as little quantitative data to back them up. Yet another point which makes him popular with the right but does not discredit him at all in my eyes is his refusal of the narrative according to which society is one big hierarchy of groups vying for power and who constantly oppress all those they can. That is not only patently untrue, it is also very dangerous. While it may not have been practiced as much as it should, the U.S. motto “e pluribus unum” is, as far as I’m concerned, the one true ideal humanity should strive for. Apparently that’s not a very popular opinion right now, but if Peterson refuses tribalism then he and I are in agreement. Methinks you are correct, we simply do not agree on the issue of Jordan Peterson, which is actually very healthy; if everyone always thought alike, the world would be a boring place. What do you think of Jonathan Haidt? He’s less controversial and certainly less flamboyant. but he nakes pretty much the same points. He, too, is a darling of many right-wingers pundits but strikes me as more of a progressive... just one who finds himself disgareeing with some voices on the left.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 10, 2018 23:25:03 GMT -5
Brexit is just crazy at this point... I mean, first you have the absurdity of allowing a popular vote determine a major foreign policy.. then you have a government promise to implement it without having any idea how... did British people really think that the EU needed them more than they needed the EU? I mean, I get the desire to not have to bow to policy formed by others, but things are so interconnected now it would be akin to Texas declaring independence and expecting the US to still let it not have any trade rules.
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Post by The Captain on Dec 11, 2018 17:02:21 GMT -5
Orrin Hack's Pathetic PartisanshipLong-time Utah Republican Senator Orrin Hatch was asked about the mounting pile of evidence against POTUS Donald J. Trump, and in true partisan hack fashion, didn't seem to have any issue with the man in the Oval Office, saying "...he's doing a good job as President." When pressed on this, Hatch said he "didn't care" about what Trump allegedly did before being elected POTUS, because "the economy is doing well, the country is moving ahead, we are in better shape than before he was elected, and we should judge him on that." The reporter asked about Trump's alleged involvement in crimes, and Hatch told him that "you can make anything a crime under the current laws (which is exactly the opposite of what laws do, as they spell out specifically what is and isn't legal) and blow it out of proportion." As well, anything that happened before Trump became President is "another world", and since he took office, Trump has done "a whale of a job" and we shouldn't be trying to "drum up things from the past that may or may not be true." When asked if the President should follow the laws, Hatch told the reporter that he (the reporter) is referring to things that happened before Trump was President and that we "should support the President when he's right and not try to destroy him for political reasons." There you have it, folks. A senior Republican leader doesn't believe what a person does before they become President is relevant (although I somehow believe the Republicans wouldn't have been so laissez faire if Hillary Clinton had been elected) and that because the economy is doing well, we should just ignore POTUS Donald J. Trump's behavior and let him plow forward doing what he wants because apparently the only thing that matters is if the economy is doing well (which is debatable). Not that the US is being diminished in the world's eyes on a daily basis, hate crimes are up, Trump paid off two women with whom he had affairs using campaign money, Trump's campaign was almost certainly in bed with the Russians trading money for access and favors, or any of the myriad of other things that smell worse than the dumpster behind a daycare in the middle of July.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 11, 2018 17:40:18 GMT -5
Orrin Hack's Pathetic PartisanshipLong-time Utah Republican Senator Orrin Hatch was asked about the mounting pile of evidence against POTUS Donald J. Trump, and in true partisan hack fashion, didn't seem to have any issue with the man in the Oval Office, saying "...he's doing a good job as President." When pressed on this, Hatch said he "didn't care" about what Trump allegedly did before being elected POTUS, because "the economy is doing well, the country is moving ahead, we are in better shape than before he was elected, and we should judge him on that." The reporter asked about Trump's alleged involvement in crimes, and Hatch told him that "you can make anything a crime under the current laws (which is exactly the opposite of what laws do, as they spell out specifically what is and isn't legal) and blow it out of proportion." As well, anything that happened before Trump became President is "another world", and since he took office, Trump has done "a whale of a job" and we shouldn't be trying to "drum up things from the past that may or may not be true." When asked if the President should follow the laws, Hatch told the reporter that he (the reporter) is referring to things that happened before Trump was President and that we "should support the President when he's right and not try to destroy him for political reasons." There you have it, folks. A senior Republican leader doesn't believe what a person does before they become President is relevant (although I somehow believe the Republicans wouldn't have been so laissez faire if Hillary Clinton had been elected) and that because the economy is doing well, we should just ignore POTUS Donald J. Trump's behavior and let him plow forward doing what he wants because apparently the only thing that matters is if the economy is doing well (which is debatable). Not that the US is being diminished in the world's eyes on a daily basis, hate crimes are up, Trump paid off two women with whom he had affairs using campaign money, Trump's campaign was almost certainly in bed with the Russians trading money for access and favors, or any of the myriad of other things that smell worse than the dumpster behind a daycare in the middle of July. The "Party of Law & Order" people. Brought to you by the former chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He also said, “No because I don’t think he was involved in crimes but even then, you know, you can make anything a crime under the current laws; if you want to you can blow it way out of proportion you can do a lot of things.” If only there were an upper house in the Congress that had some input into all those laws. One that Hatch has been a member of for the last 41 years. Then he'd have had some say about those pesky laws. It's like we live in a live-action Onion article.
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 11, 2018 18:37:48 GMT -5
Orrin Hack's Pathetic PartisanshipLong-time Utah Republican Senator Orrin Hatch was asked about the mounting pile of evidence against POTUS Donald J. Trump, and in true partisan hack fashion, didn't seem to have any issue with the man in the Oval Office, saying "...he's doing a good job as President." When pressed on this, Hatch said he "didn't care" about what Trump allegedly did before being elected POTUS, because "the economy is doing well, the country is moving ahead, we are in better shape than before he was elected, and we should judge him on that." The reporter asked about Trump's alleged involvement in crimes, and Hatch told him that "you can make anything a crime under the current laws (which is exactly the opposite of what laws do, as they spell out specifically what is and isn't legal) and blow it out of proportion." As well, anything that happened before Trump became President is "another world", and since he took office, Trump has done "a whale of a job" and we shouldn't be trying to "drum up things from the past that may or may not be true." When asked if the President should follow the laws, Hatch told the reporter that he (the reporter) is referring to things that happened before Trump was President and that we "should support the President when he's right and not try to destroy him for political reasons." There you have it, folks. A senior Republican leader doesn't believe what a person does before they become President is relevant (although I somehow believe the Republicans wouldn't have been so laissez faire if Hillary Clinton had been elected) and that because the economy is doing well, we should just ignore POTUS Donald J. Trump's behavior and let him plow forward doing what he wants because apparently the only thing that matters is if the economy is doing well (which is debatable). Not that the US is being diminished in the world's eyes on a daily basis, hate crimes are up, Trump paid off two women with whom he had affairs using campaign money, Trump's campaign was almost certainly in bed with the Russians trading money for access and favors, or any of the myriad of other things that smell worse than the dumpster behind a daycare in the middle of July. The "Party of Law & Order" people. Brought to you by the former chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He also said, “No because I don’t think he was involved in crimes but even then, you know, you can make anything a crime under the current laws; if you want to you can blow it way out of proportion you can do a lot of things.” If only there were an upper house in the Congress that had some input into all those laws. One that Hatch has been a member of for the last 41 years. Then he'd have had some say about those pesky laws. It's like we live in a live-action Onion article. True dat. Outdated slang apropos for commenting on a long outdated senator, who in addition to being all the things you mention, is also a religious man. As irony absorbs yet another punch to the gut.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 11, 2018 19:10:33 GMT -5
Shamelessly swiped from a late night show (Colbert or Meyers, I forget):
“a wise man once said...
The wise man? Orrin Hatch, talking about Bill Clinton.”
He didn’t seem to care that Clinton was doing a much better job than Trump is today, apparently.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 11, 2018 19:11:52 GMT -5
Also, why is the president angry that Congress won’t pay for his wall? Didn’t he say Mexico was going to foot the bill?
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Post by impulse on Dec 12, 2018 13:16:18 GMT -5
Former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen sentenced to three years prisonThe fake news, made up, Democrat lie FAKE witch hunt investigation keeps turning up witches. Someone was just sentenced to actual prison time for a crime in which the president was identified as an unindicted co-conspirator. This is just the campaign finance stuff, folks. Next season of America is going to have a lot of twists, I think.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 12, 2018 13:50:49 GMT -5
Former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen sentenced to three years prisonThe fake news, made up, Democrat lie FAKE witch hunt investigation keeps turning up witches. Someone was just sentenced to actual prison time for a crime in which the president was identified as an unindicted co-conspirator. This is just the campaign finance stuff, folks. Next season of America is going to have a lot of twists, I think. Let's not forget that he was also Deputy Finance Chairman of the Republican National Committee. Oh...and also did legal work for Sean Hannity.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 12, 2018 13:53:57 GMT -5
It's so unfair how crazy out to get the great man and so many of his good guy pals all these unhinged screaming lefties are, isn't it? "Those liberals are just making stuff up." (c)(r) tm pat pend. Karl Rove handbook of blame your 'enemies' for things you are most guilty of.
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Post by impulse on Dec 12, 2018 17:45:17 GMT -5
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 12, 2018 18:00:47 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of Napolitano. But he's been pretty spot on in his analysis when I've paid attention to it. Which of course will mean the Faux News set will be all over him as a RiNO.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 18:38:48 GMT -5
Found this by accident ...Here's the caption ... You’ll find out, Superman. You’ll find out.
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