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Post by impulse on Nov 15, 2018 17:37:27 GMT -5
Now, hold on a second. Are you talking about the social democrat stuff like Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, or do you mean you are seeing people actually advocate for actual communism? I want to be sure I understand you and that you're not conflating the two because they are MASSIVELY different things and not remotely comparable at all. I have not seen literally a single person AT ALL from ANY generation advocating for actual communism. Like, at all. None. Not saying it can't be happening at all, and it's not like my experience is universal, but that seems pretty fringe if it's a thing at all. No, I'm talking about actual Marxist-Leninists. Lots of millennials are into it for some reason. I definitely knew more than a few publicly open communists in college. That is astonishing. Wow.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 15, 2018 21:33:49 GMT -5
No, I'm talking about actual Marxist-Leninists. Lots of millennials are into it for some reason. I definitely knew more than a few publicly open communists in college. I've seen them too; in terms of threat I agree, I don't see them that way, I just see them as really really young. I think some of Trump's appeal could be found in his tall talk about having ten billion dollars and this not needing any outside financing to be beholden to. Note that he got outside funding and is beholden to them like any politician, but then of course he is actually only worth around two billion according to those in the know, so, just adding floors to one of his buildings... times five. Yes, they all have strings and the longer they've 'served' generally the more strings they get on them. Hilary has a lot of strings by her second run (third you could even say) for the White House, as did McCain by the time he got to be the main man for the other guys. Trump who they thought wouldn't have any strings may have more than most. If you want to make a dent in a current Trump fan you'd probably have to point them to info on Trump's strings, especially to these foreigners he at the same time uses as some kind of immanent invasion force or deplorables. I never thought conservatives could really back Trump as he is such a major born-into entitlement victim and for a couple decades I noticed that one thing conservatives say they can't stand are entitled victims. Then again, he seemed to "win" all the time and so here we are. Seeing him holding a Bible in public was about equally surreal. When put in with Saudis nobody is more for them than he is. When in with Israelis nobody is more for them than he is. In front of military nobody is more for them than he is. Nobody loves women more. Nobody does more for blacks. Whatever you're buying he'll be selling. Now you find out what you've got to lose. "See chameleon, lying there in the sun, all things to everyone, run run away." - Slade
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,218
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Post by Confessor on Nov 15, 2018 21:57:06 GMT -5
As for Nixon opening trade with china... biggest mistake for the west ever in my view. You know how many millions of their own people starved and died and turned each other in under Mao right? These people would've probably collapsed and been gone if only we'd stuck to our principles and isolated them as with Russia. Instead they practically own half the world and now have a new president for life. What they did in Tibet and Tienanmen Square made me outraged and sick and I won't be letting up on that non-manufactured nor faux outrage ever. I think the bolded part is a long shot. China's human rights record is apalling, no arguments there, but I think it's a huge stretch to lay the blame for that at the Nixon administration's door. Opening up dialogue with a hostile nation is always a positive thing, especially when it is as successful as Nixon's overtures to China were.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,218
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Post by Confessor on Nov 15, 2018 22:05:45 GMT -5
Communism is ultimately evil to me, if that's unfashionable I don't care, you only have to look and learn the fates of a lot of the true believers in it, the ones that aren't simply thugs and crooks. No, I'm talking about actual Marxist-Leninists. Lots of millennials are into it for some reason. I definitely knew more than a few publicly open communists in college. For what it's worth (and remember that us Brits are generally much more left-leaning than you Yanks), I'm a left-wing Socialist Labour voter who is, let's say, "romanced by Communism." By that I mean that I find an awful lot of the Communist manifesto by Marx and Engels reasonates with my own politics. I also have a modest collection of Russian and Chinese Communist memorabilia...mostly medals and other militaria. I really love the iconography of Communist Russia, with its stirring depictions of proletariat workers. Heh, you know, I just remembered that back in the late '90s, I sometimes used to wear a black Mao suit (the ladies loved it! ). Of course, in spite of my romantic notions about Communism, I know that it doesn't really work in the real world. But then I'd also say that pure Communism has never really been tried. Nevertheless, as a theoretical ideology, I think it's pretty sound.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 16, 2018 0:26:18 GMT -5
I'd love it if communism could be treated like a quaint artifact or hiply ironic. Until that time it seems to be a strange fuel for creating misery for most and lavish luxury for the scum that rises so easily up through such a system (in contrast to Lenin's spartan and utilitarian example of how to live). Here's hoping we actually get there, but like just when some folks decided that now when there's been a black President in the U.S. that pesky Voter's Rights Act is no longer needed... whoops, like a game of snakes and ladders it's many spaces back we go so much faster than anyone thought possible.
It doesn't bother me to see Che Guevera posters and shirts around, but I'll draw the line at Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge keychains and mini drinks cabinets. Actually I'm very enamored of William Morris; Pre-Raphaelite, Arts & Crafts founder and pioneer English Socialist. Something local that works for the most people, no big mass-production visions for me.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 16, 2018 8:33:29 GMT -5
Now, hold on a second. Are you talking about the social democrat stuff like Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, or do you mean you are seeing people actually advocate for actual communism? I want to be sure I understand you and that you're not conflating the two because they are MASSIVELY different things and not remotely comparable at all. I have not seen literally a single person AT ALL from ANY generation advocating for actual communism. Like, at all. None. Not saying it can't be happening at all, and it's not like my experience is universal, but that seems pretty fringe if it's a thing at all. No, I'm talking about actual Marxist-Leninists. Lots of millennials are into it for some reason. I definitely knew more than a few publicly open communists in college. In my experience, that's the kind of thing that gets left behind in college. It's all the rage during late night, dorm room philosophy sessions but once you're out in the real world it fades away real fast.
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 16, 2018 9:46:25 GMT -5
Communism is ultimately evil to me, if that's unfashionable I don't care, you only have to look and learn the fates of a lot of the true believers in it, the ones that aren't simply thugs and crooks. No, I'm talking about actual Marxist-Leninists. Lots of millennials are into it for some reason. I definitely knew more than a few publicly open communists in college. For what it's worth (and remember that us Brits are generally much more left-leaning than you Yanks), I'm a left-wing Socialist Labour voter who is, let's say, "romanced by Communism." By that I mean that I find an awful lot of the Communist manifesto by Marx and Engels reasonates with my own politics. I also have a modest collection of Russian and Chinese Communist memorabilia...mostly medals and other militaria. I really love the iconography of Communist Russia, with its stirring depictions of proletariat workers. Heh, you know, I just remembered that back in the late '90s, I sometimes used to wear a black Mao suit (the ladies loved it! ). Of course, in spite of my romantic notions about Communism, I know that it doesn't really work in the real world. But then I'd also say that pure Communism has never really been tried. Nevertheless, as a theoretical ideology, I think it's pretty sound. Paging the corpse of Joe McCarthy!
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 16, 2018 9:47:29 GMT -5
No, I'm talking about actual Marxist-Leninists. Lots of millennials are into it for some reason. I definitely knew more than a few publicly open communists in college. In my experience, that's the kind of thing that gets left behind in college. It's all the rage during late night, dorm room philosophy sessions but once you're out in the real world it fades away real fast. You'd think so, but hop on Twitter or the like and you'll see a bunch of people clinging to those philosophies well into their 30s.
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Post by impulse on Nov 16, 2018 10:38:06 GMT -5
In my experience, that's the kind of thing that gets left behind in college. It's all the rage during late night, dorm room philosophy sessions but once you're out in the real world it fades away real fast. You'd think so, but hop on Twitter or the like and you'll see a bunch of people clinging to those philosophies well into their 30s. There will always be some small number believing anything, but I would suspect not a huge number of people in major positions surely.
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 16, 2018 11:45:28 GMT -5
You'd think so, but hop on Twitter or the like and you'll see a bunch of people clinging to those philosophies well into their 30s. There will always be some small number believing anything, but I would suspect not a huge number of people in major positions surely. That's the point I was making earlier. They're not in power, so I don't worry about them. I just find them obnoxious and self righteous.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 18, 2018 13:43:30 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 19, 2018 12:48:27 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 19, 2018 13:05:23 GMT -5
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Post by EdoBosnar on Nov 19, 2018 15:56:55 GMT -5
(But don't ask how many disguises I wore to vote over and over again. (Somehow.) My make-up kit looks Jimmy Olsen's, with several different-colored Groucho moustaches! I kept my disguises hidden behind a pile of forest rakes imported from Finland.) Now wait a minute, back when I lived (and voted multiply per election) in California, I also used the Jimmy Olsen kit precisely because it offered such a diversity of effective diguises: gorilla, Viking, hippie, wolfman, giant turtle man, human porcupine, human octopus (8 ballots at once!), Elastic Lad, Flamebird...
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 19, 2018 20:24:00 GMT -5
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