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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 29, 2015 13:48:51 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with the Texas' decision you're referencing, but it sounds like it allows people to opt out of signing and processing marriage licenses based on religious beliefs. If that is the case, those folks should look for new jobs, because as an employee of the government, you have an obligation to uphold the laws set forth by the government that employs you whether you agree with them or not. Whether or not members of the military voted for or even have any respect for the sitting president, that individual is the Commander in Chief and they are honor- and duty-bound to follow his orders. I agree whole-heartedly! If someone is really that serious about making Jesus look intolerant, stupid and rude, he or she should quit and find a job that he or she can do instead of using non-existent scripture to justify bigoted beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 15:49:18 GMT -5
In observation of the argument on both sides I think that the biggest flaw of either making their point is that marriage and love are mutually exclusive, and they're not. Two people can be in love without marriage and two people can be married, heterosexual or homosexual and not be in love. Marriage is a legal contract recognized by this country. If both sides come at each other with the legal ramifications and benefits based upon how Constitution interprets said contract, then maybe the conclusion could come to a summit long ago. Love doesn't need marriage, and marriage isn't exclusive to love. In the legal benefits that come with the US marriage contract, I don't see much of an argument of why heterosexuals should receive them and homosexuals shouldn't.This is my argument (both literally and figuratively) with some folks I go to church with. They want to argue that marriage was created by God to only be between a man and a woman, and I will agree with them on that within the boundaries of the church. If a church doesn't want to sanction same-sex marriages, it should have the right to not do so (although I am glad that the PCUSA finally decided to allow it). That said, the government is in the marriage business as well. I can't get legally married in a church or anywhere else without the government's OK (given by a marriage license) but I can get married anywhere by a governmentally-authorized person without the church's approval as long as I have a license (my in-laws did the Justice of the Peace thing back in the 1950's and were married for 49 years without ever having a church ceremony), and that is where the religious opposition to the government-sanctioned institution of same-sex marriage falls apart. The church should be allowed to handle the "sacred" institution of marriage within its walls however it sees fit, but the government must offer all of its citizens the same right to marry in order to receive the legal benefits of marriage or else its policies are discriminatory and should be (and thankfully now have been) changed. Agree completely. But also, lets not forget the many churches and other religious institutions completely willing to marry gays as well. Denying them that right is kind of infringing on their religious beliefs and practices, isn't it? Seems like "Religious Freedom" in America is always skewed toward one particular brand of religion whose "Freedom" involves infringing on everyone else's freedoms.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 15:51:25 GMT -5
This is my argument (both literally and figuratively) with some folks I go to church with. They want to argue that marriage was created by God to only be between a man and a woman, and I will agree with them on that within the boundaries of the church. If a church doesn't want to sanction same-sex marriages, it should have the right to not do so (although I am glad that the PCUSA finally decided to allow it). That said, the government is in the marriage business as well. I can't get legally married in a church or anywhere else without the government's OK (given by a marriage license) but I can get married anywhere by a governmentally-authorized person without the church's approval as long as I have a license (my in-laws did the Justice of the Peace thing back in the 1950's and were married for 49 years without ever having a church ceremony), and that is where the religious opposition to the government-sanctioned institution of same-sex marriage falls apart. The church should be allowed to handle the "sacred" institution of marriage within its walls however it sees fit, but the government must offer all of its citizens the same right to marry in order to receive the legal benefits of marriage or else its policies are discriminatory and should be (and thankfully now have been) changed. That's about how I see it too. I don't think anyone will force the Catholic Church to host or perform gay marriage any time soon(though like interracial marriage that may change in the future) so the church can keep that, but anywhere else is fair game and that doesn't harm anyone. In a similar vain, I don't see Texas' decision standing unless they are able to provide alternate employees who will grant licences. I mean, you can't sign and process the document due to your beliefs, okay what ever, but legally there should be someone there who can. If a Muslim applied for a job at a pork slaughterhouse and said he couldn't touch pork, or anything that had touched pork, based on his religious beliefs, I'm sure the state of Texas would tell him to find a new job.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jun 29, 2015 16:11:58 GMT -5
That's about how I see it too. I don't think anyone will force the Catholic Church to host or perform gay marriage any time soon(though like interracial marriage that may change in the future) so the church can keep that, but anywhere else is fair game and that doesn't harm anyone. In a similar vain, I don't see Texas' decision standing unless they are able to provide alternate employees who will grant licences. I mean, you can't sign and process the document due to your beliefs, okay what ever, but legally there should be someone there who can. If a Muslim applied for a job at a pork slaughterhouse and said he couldn't touch pork, or anything that had touched pork, based on his religious beliefs, I'm sure the state of Texas would tell him to find a new job. Out of fairness, your example is a bit off target. If a Muslim applies at a business that only slaughters pork, then his motives for applying would be questionable since he would have known before he applied that it violated his religion. If he's been working for some time at a slaughter house that never used to process pork, but now does, he should be moved to another position where he doesn't deal with pork.
In the case of someone working in the marriage license bureau, they could have worked there for years without the issue of same-sex marriages ever coming up since the laws just changed. If someone is currently working there and has a religious objection, they shouldn't be forced to issue them or be "told to find a new job". They should be transferred to another position where they don't have to go against their religious principles. If someone applies, knowing full well that they will be required to issue same-sex licenses, they should be considered for a different position.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 29, 2015 16:14:19 GMT -5
I don't know, as long as there was another person there who would okay the paper work I don't care if certain individuals don't want to do the job. As a use for a de-facto ban circumventing the Supreme Court Ruling I'm all against it, but I think there's a middle ground that is palatable for everyone and that's usually the best decision.
I have little doubt that in Texas it wouldn't swing the other way for Muslims and other groups but I don't see that as a reason for not trying to find a middle ground. I mean, that kind of reasoning just sounds vindictive to me. Instead just protect all religious freedom, you have a Muslim applicant and he can't deal with pork, are there other positions open that could accommodate his needs? Is he qualified for those positions? If yes than help him out. And if he already worked there and pork processing is new, then follow the same steps, there's got to be some way to accommodate him.
Same here, you have a clerk who has strong religious convictions? That's fine, they don't need to lose their job and they can go on doing what they feel is right so long as there is someone else who also holds the same position who can process the paper work in their stead. You're a poor town and can't afford two clerks? Fine, make the position part time and alternate days with your two employees. Now the Religious Right might decry that solution as still costing that person an income, but hey compromises are like that; they often lead to some unhappiness on both sides. But there's also another compromise, that employee could decide to issue marriage licences despite not believing in them; it might be distasteful to them but they get to keep their full hours.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 16:35:35 GMT -5
If a Muslim applied for a job at a pork slaughterhouse and said he couldn't touch pork, or anything that had touched pork, based on his religious beliefs, I'm sure the state of Texas would tell him to find a new job. Out of fairness, your example is a bit off target. If a Muslim applies at a business that only slaughters pork, then his motives for applying would be questionable since he would have known before he applied that it violated his religion. If he's been working for some time at a slaughter house that never used to process pork, but now does, he should be moved to another position where he doesn't deal with pork.
In the case of someone working in the marriage license bureau, they could have worked there for years without the issue of same-sex marriages ever coming up since the laws just changed. If someone is currently working there and has a religious objection, they shouldn't be forced to issue them or be "told to find a new job". They should be transferred to another position where they don't have to go against their religious principles. If someone applies, knowing full well that they will be required to issue same-sex licenses, they should be considered for a different position.
Sure, but I'm one who thinks many people with very sensitive religious beliefs purposefully flock to jobs that have religious exceptions like that so they can deny services based on their religion. Pharmacists for example. I honestly believe there's an organized effort among far right pro-lifers to staff as many pharmacy positions as possible strictly so they can refuse to fill birth control prescriptions. The state allowing religious exclusion to state workers marrying gays is going to get them a whole lot of applicants. And I'm guessing they're all going to have a conflict of faith when it comes to marrying gays. Pretty sure it's illegal to ask, or even discriminate against them if they know for a fact though. So in my eyes the comparison is fair.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 16:37:46 GMT -5
I don't know, as long as there was another person there who would okay the paper work I don't care if certain individuals don't want to do the job. As a use for a de-facto ban circumventing the Supreme Court Ruling I'm all against it, but I think there's a middle ground that is palatable for everyone and that's usually the best decision. I have little doubt that in Texas it wouldn't swing the other way for Muslims and other groups but I don't see that as a reason for not trying to find a middle ground. I mean, that kind of reasoning just sounds vindictive to me. Instead just protect all religious freedom, you have a Muslim applicant and he can't deal with pork, are there other positions open that could accommodate his needs? Is he qualified for those positions? If yes than help him out. And if he already worked there and pork processing is new, then follow the same steps, there's got to be some way to accommodate him. Same here, you have a clerk who has strong religious convictions? That's fine, they don't need to lose their job and they can go on doing what they feel is right so long as there is someone else who also holds the same position who can process the paper work in their stead. You're a poor town and can't afford two clerks? Fine, make the position part time and alternate days with your two employees. Now the Religious Right might decry that solution as still costing that person an income, but hey compromises are like that; they often lead to some unhappiness on both sides. But there's also another compromise, that employee could decide to issue marriage licences despite not believing in them; it might be distasteful to them but they get to keep their full hours. I feel like public servants should have to be willing to serve the entire public regardless of their beliefs. The Klan has religious objections to interracial marriage. Can a county clerk deny a marriage to an interracial couple based on religious belief? I don't really feel pity for those whose religious beliefs prohibit them from operating in society losing their jobs.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 29, 2015 17:38:08 GMT -5
I don't know, as long as there was another person there who would okay the paper work I don't care if certain individuals don't want to do the job. As a use for a de-facto ban circumventing the Supreme Court Ruling I'm all against it, but I think there's a middle ground that is palatable for everyone and that's usually the best decision. I have little doubt that in Texas it wouldn't swing the other way for Muslims and other groups but I don't see that as a reason for not trying to find a middle ground. I mean, that kind of reasoning just sounds vindictive to me. Instead just protect all religious freedom, you have a Muslim applicant and he can't deal with pork, are there other positions open that could accommodate his needs? Is he qualified for those positions? If yes than help him out. And if he already worked there and pork processing is new, then follow the same steps, there's got to be some way to accommodate him. Same here, you have a clerk who has strong religious convictions? That's fine, they don't need to lose their job and they can go on doing what they feel is right so long as there is someone else who also holds the same position who can process the paper work in their stead. You're a poor town and can't afford two clerks? Fine, make the position part time and alternate days with your two employees. Now the Religious Right might decry that solution as still costing that person an income, but hey compromises are like that; they often lead to some unhappiness on both sides. But there's also another compromise, that employee could decide to issue marriage licences despite not believing in them; it might be distasteful to them but they get to keep their full hours. I feel like public servants should have to be willing to serve the entire public regardless of their beliefs. The Klan has religious objections to interracial marriage. Can a county clerk deny a marriage to an interracial couple based on religious belief? I don't really feel pity for those whose religious beliefs prohibit them from operating in society losing their jobs. I generally feel the same but at the same time, what's the harm in trowing them a bone with a compromise?
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Post by spoon on Jun 29, 2015 18:31:01 GMT -5
If a Muslim applied for a job at a pork slaughterhouse and said he couldn't touch pork, or anything that had touched pork, based on his religious beliefs, I'm sure the state of Texas would tell him to find a new job. Out of fairness, your example is a bit off target. If a Muslim applies at a business that only slaughters pork, then his motives for applying would be questionable since he would have known before he applied that it violated his religion. If he's been working for some time at a slaughter house that never used to process pork, but now does, he should be moved to another position where he doesn't deal with pork.
In the case of someone working in the marriage license bureau, they could have worked there for years without the issue of same-sex marriages ever coming up since the laws just changed. If someone is currently working there and has a religious objection, they shouldn't be forced to issue them or be "told to find a new job". They should be transferred to another position where they don't have to go against their religious principles. If someone applies, knowing full well that they will be required to issue same-sex licenses, they should be considered for a different position.
I find it somewhat disingenuous for a Christian to claim that processing the marriage license of a same-sex couple (or even performing their marriage in a civil capacity) violates their religion. People generally treat religious prohibitions as binding on them, not binding on their ability to facilitate someone with different religious beliefs from doing the prohibited acts. I don't think a prohibition on someone in a particular denomination getting married to a person of the same sex necessitates facilitating the same-sex marriage of non-believers. Did marriage licenses even exist at the time the Bible was written. These folks aren't acting in the capacity of religious ministers either. They are performing a civil function. The same logic that these folks use to say they can't issue same-sex marriage licenses, would require large swaths of Christians not to process paperwork related to divorce. Also, by that logic, Christians should not shop, eat out at a restaurant, use electricity, or use running water on a Sunday. Each of those activities forces another person to work on the Sabbath. And again, it's no excuse even if every single person working for the power company is non-Christian. Because the argument is that these people are violating their religion by facilitating the marriage of same-sex couples who believe same-sex marriage is morally permissible. I bet there are multiple interpretations of how Islam regards pork. If the prohibitions is on eating it, then working at a slaughterhouse that handles it may not be prohibited. I've had a Muslim employee at Subway (she was wearing a hijab) make me a sandwich that had ham in it. She wore gloves, but the people that make sandwiches always do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 18:57:49 GMT -5
I feel like public servants should have to be willing to serve the entire public regardless of their beliefs. The Klan has religious objections to interracial marriage. Can a county clerk deny a marriage to an interracial couple based on religious belief? I don't really feel pity for those whose religious beliefs prohibit them from operating in society losing their jobs. I generally feel the same but at the same time, what's the harm in trowing them a bone with a compromise? There should be no compromise to public service. If you're an EMT and you don't like black people, you're going to have to grow up and provide them the services you're paid to provide or find a new job. I think if you're a county clerk that doesn't like gay people, you should do the same. Tolerance of bigotry on behalf of the government is a violation of civil rights. Fire them if they can't do their job.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 29, 2015 19:01:32 GMT -5
I generally feel the same but at the same time, what's the harm in trowing them a bone with a compromise? There should be no compromise to public service. If you're an EMT and you don't like black people, you're going to have to grow up and provide them the services you're paid to provide or find a new job. I think if you're a county clerk that doesn't like gay people, you should do the same. Tolerance of bigotry on behalf of the government is a violation of civil rights. Fire them if they can't do their job. I think the compromise would sort of force the issue, like I said they'd likely need to go part time in order to afford two people and forced with the option of going part time or granting weddings to gay couples I think they are going to make the second compromise I mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 19:33:00 GMT -5
There should be no compromise to public service. If you're an EMT and you don't like black people, you're going to have to grow up and provide them the services you're paid to provide or find a new job. I think if you're a county clerk that doesn't like gay people, you should do the same. Tolerance of bigotry on behalf of the government is a violation of civil rights. Fire them if they can't do their job. I think the compromise would sort of force the issue, like I said they'd likely need to go part time in order to afford two people and forced with the option of going part time or granting weddings to gay couples I think they are going to make the second compromise I mentioned. They don't need to go part time or afford two people. If you can't perform your job, you're replaced. Still just one full time employee.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 29, 2015 19:39:50 GMT -5
I think the compromise would sort of force the issue, like I said they'd likely need to go part time in order to afford two people and forced with the option of going part time or granting weddings to gay couples I think they are going to make the second compromise I mentioned. They don't need to go part time or afford two people. If you can't perform your job, you're replaced. Still just one full time employee. It allows for the Religious Right to feel like they won something, making it much easier in the long run. Like I said, it's a compromise not only do they not get exactly what they'd like but neither do we but in the end it's the best result.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 21:02:30 GMT -5
There is no reason for the religious right to feel like they won anything and there is no reason for a compromise. Firing a county clerk for failing to perform his duties is constitutionally legal, and the right thing to do. The "best result" is bigotry is not tolerated in public service at any level.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 29, 2015 21:13:48 GMT -5
There is no reason for the religious right to feel like they won anything and there is no reason for a compromise. Firing a county clerk for failing to perform his duties is constitutionally legal, and the right thing to do. The "best result" is bigotry is not tolerated in public service at any level. Sure, you can do that but it would cause an uproar, meanwhile if you let them save face you miss the furor while achieving the same end. I'd much rather the latter to the former.
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