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Post by gothos on Oct 2, 2014 15:44:32 GMT -5
Hoosier X:
To your remark about whether Miller does or doesn't like Catwoman-- I've no idea if he likes her or not. But I'd suggest that his main concern when he uses her is to make her work in his "hardboiled crime" mindset. Rightly or wrongly, this leads him to suggest that both in her younger and older selves, she gets affiliated with the oldest profession.
Curiously, the one time he did a Catwoman who wasn't so affiliated was with a lady-crook character featured in HOLY TERROR, who was given some other name but was clearly meant to be DC's Feline Felon.
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 2, 2014 17:40:14 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this, gothos. I can kind of see the point you're making, but when you actually read hard-boiled crime as a genre, they are chockful of female characters that aren't hookers. I read a lot of Raymond Chandler, and very few of the women are prostitutes.
Even if what you are saying was true, I think the portrayal of Selina in TDKR was especially lazy writing, and a terrible way to handle such a great character.
I re-read Batma: Year One yesterday. I was looking at it and trying to figure out what it added to the story to have Selina a prostitute. It doesn't add anything. Not a thing.
It just seems to be Miller's go-to position for far too many of his female characters. (Let me add that it's completely understandable in Sin City. I am not criticizing Miller merely because he has prostitution in his writing. My criticism is his lazy writing on Seline Kyle, with characterizations that degrade her without adding anything to her portrayal or to the stories where he does this.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 17:52:39 GMT -5
I got that Gordon of Gotham TPB this week that collects Gordan's Law, GCPD, and Gordon of Gotham. I've read the first two minis and I wasn't crazy about either. I like O'Neil, so hopefully the last third is more my speed.
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Post by Jasoomian on Oct 4, 2014 12:34:12 GMT -5
Catwoman, cathuose... it's still a more honest profession than burglary.
Anyway, I saw The Lego Movie last week... Batman had a supporting role. It was a certainly a better Batman film than the Schumacher movies.
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Post by gothos on Oct 4, 2014 15:16:20 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this, gothos. I can kind of see the point you're making, but when you actually read hard-boiled crime as a genre, they are chockful of female characters that aren't hookers. I read a lot of Raymond Chandler, and very few of the women are prostitutes. Even if what you are saying was true, I think the portrayal of Selina in TDKR was especially lazy writing, and a terrible way to handle such a great character. I re-read Batma: Year One yesterday. I was looking at it and trying to figure out what it added to the story to have Selina a prostitute. It doesn't add anything. Not a thing. It just seems to be Miller's go-to position for far too many of his female characters. (Let me add that it's completely understandable in Sin City. I am not criticizing Miller merely because he has prostitution in his writing. My criticism is his lazy writing on Seline Kyle, with characterizations that degrade her without adding anything to her portrayal or to the stories where he does this.) I don't substantially disagree with the view that it's a somewhat lazy characterization, but I just wanted to make the point that at all times Miller was trying to think of ways to meld a costumed avenger story with various tropes of hardboiled crime fiction. That's not to say that every choice he made was good. He was definitely going for the big showy effects, the sort that might impress the average reader who thought of superheroes as vanilla kids' entertainment. "What? A Batman story where Catwoman is a prostitute and Superman is the lapdog of Ronald Reagan??" To his credit, he succeeded in impressing a lot of people beyond the regular readership, which was something that people like Chris Claremont and Jim Starlin, regardless of their talents, had not been able to do by 1986. To be sure, Miller could be a bit of a hypocrite at times. One of the few times I had to agree with Gary Groth was an interview in which Miller was going on about how bad it was for Claremont to allude to adult concerns in a mainstream book like X-MEN-- I think he may have referenced the Jean Grey/Hellfire Club stuff. Groth asked him how that was different from Miller's use of adult subject matter in BATMAN, and Miller didn't muster any good defense. So, thinking back to Catwoman stories published before 1986, which ones stand high in your regard? I love the character, but she was the victim of a lot of inconsistent characterizations over the years. I for one hated the 1950s schtick in which she suffered from a split personality. I suppose my own favorite is "Claws of the Catwoman," where she's piqued by bad press about her past life and decides to turn back to crime for spite's sake. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 4, 2014 17:16:29 GMT -5
"Claws of the Catwoman" from Batman #42 is definitely a favorite, but I also really like "The Lady Rogues" ... and, when you get right down to it, any Golden Age Catwoman story is fine and dandy with me.
I also like Batman #197, where she changes her stripes and starts helping Batman because she's jealous of Batgirl. I have a copy of that and I pull it out and read it two or three times a year.
My favorite Catwoman story is probably the origin in Batman #62. It was one of the first Golden Age Batman stories I read (in one of those over-sized reprints DC published in the 1970s) and it made a really big impression.
But probably my favorite version of Catwoman is from the 1980s, during that period when the Bat-continuity went from Batman to Detective for a few years, from 1981 to 1986. She was in the series A LOT, she was practically a supporting character. She was great as an out-and-out villain in the 1970s (as in batman #266 or #291), but that was getting a little old (I guess) and she became a more ambiguous character, sort of slipping little-by-little into a good-guy mode to where she was an accepted guest-star super-hero with Green Arrow and Black Canary in Detective #559.
It was a gradual transition. She had a little trouble dealing with Vicki Vale's influence on Bruce Wayne at one point, leading to a savage freak-out in Batman #354, but they worked through that.
Anyway, that's the Catwoman that I knew and loved from that period when I was reading Batman regularly, but whatever they were going to do with Bruce and Selina was completely messed up by Crisis on Infinite Earths. (And I can see why they did it. Catwoman as a gang leader/crime queen is pretty neat.)
It's taken me a long time to warm to leather/goggles/burglar Catwoman, but I did read the New 52 Catwoman series for a year and a half. I kept hoping for it to be a little better.
You're right that Catwoman hasn't been characterized consistently. But I don't think she's any worse than Batman in that regard.
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Post by chadwilliam on Oct 4, 2014 20:10:14 GMT -5
What I find weird about Catwoman in the 1980's is the fact that one day, she just knows that Batman is Bruce Wayne. I don't mean, she discovers this info - I mean that one moment she doesn't know, the next she does - and no one ever comments on this. The only explanation I can come up with is that readers knew that the Earth 2 Catwoman knew Batman's identity and overlooked the fact that no such story existed which pertained to the main titles. But what a detail to overlook! |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 4, 2014 21:51:58 GMT -5
What I find weird about Catwoman in the 1980's is the fact that one day, she just knows that Batman is Bruce Wayne. I don't mean, she discovers this info - I mean that one moment she doesn't know, the next she does - and no one ever comments on this. The only explanation I can come up with is that readers knew that the Earth 2 Catwoman knew Batman's identity and overlooked the fact that no such story existed which pertained to the main titles. But what a detail to overlook! I did not notice it at the time but I've heard this situation discussed, probably online and fairly recently.
My guess is that the growing closeness between Catwoman and Batman, which started in the late 1970s-early 1980s, was a gradual thing developed and expanded by several writers, most notably Len Wein and Doug Moench, maybe Marv Wolfman (I'm writing this from memory) and it probably seemed ridiculous that Catwoman wouldn't know Wayne was Batman. So at some point, one of the writers (I'm guessing Moench) just assumed that Selina knew, maybe he thought an earlier writer had written it in, and it just became how Catwoman was written.
(My own view of my favorite characterization of Catwoman is, yeah, she knows Bruce Wayne is Batman. It seems like a weird question to me. I didn't start reading Batman regularly until 1982. (Although I'd buy Batman, Detective and The Brave and the Bold sporadically starting in 1976.) If I had started reading the Batman books regularly in 1975, I'd probably feel differently.
Ladies and gentlemen, comic books ...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 15:47:57 GMT -5
I got that Gordon of Gotham TPB this week that collects Gordan's Law, GCPD, and Gordon of Gotham. I've read the first two minis and I wasn't crazy about either. I like O'Neil, so hopefully the last third is more my speed. Well, as expected, I preferred O'Neil's story to Dixon's. That being said, I didn't much like it either. |
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Post by Jasoomian on Oct 6, 2014 12:27:17 GMT -5
I watched Lego Batman: The Movie - DC Super Heroes Unite. This was a fun kid's (71-minute, direct-to-DVD) movie. It's Batman & Robin and Superman vs. Joker and Luthor for the bulk of the story. The rest of the Justice League shows up in the final ten minutes and the ending sets up a Lego Green Lantern sequel. I wouldn't particularly reccommend it for adults but it's worthwhile family viewing if you have little ones.
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 23, 2014 14:50:21 GMT -5
I thought I'd say a few words about "Batman and Son."
I'm not the biggest Grant Morrison fan. I like "Flex Mentallo" (bought it when it was brand new and thought it was great) and "All-Star Superman" is in my Top Five Superman Stories, but his writing on Batman has always left me scratching my head and wondering if he's just pretending when he says he likes the character. From "Arkham Asylum" (which I read when it was first released) to "Batman R.I.P" to "Final Crisis" to a couple of things which have titles I've forgotten, I am completely baffled by the acclaim for Grant Morrison's Batman. He's not terrible (usually), and he usually writes some cool sequences, but there is a lot of dumb stuff in there and sometimes it comes off as pretentious.
(And we won't even talk about the narrative mess known as Supergods.)
But I liked "Batman and Son." Oh, it's no great classic. It's not making me reconsider my Top Twenty Batman Stories list, but it's fun and it's solid, evoking the Batman of the early 1970s more than anything else. The army of Man-Bat Ninjas is so wonderfully silly that it definitely brings back memories of the period.
Another thing I like about it: No Ra's al Ghul! He is just used way too much. And if he fails as often as he does (because he must), then he starts to look silly. Ra's is not the Joker; It's OK for the Joker to look silly. The Joker just wants to mess with the Batman, and he does that even when he loses! So, mission accomplished!
And yet, Ra's is all over "Batman and Son," and it is glorious! It's about his legacy and his plans and Talia taking over the reins. She adds her own twist to the scheming, and I really likes what Morrison did with Talia.
The best Ra's al Ghul story since the 1980s, and Ra's isn't even in it! I hope future Batman writers take note.
And then there's Damian. What a cocky little wanker he is! I've only seen him here and there (I read New 52 Detective Comics for a while but he wasn't in it that much. I thought he was good with the Huntress in World's Finest) but I was starting to like him, a worthy Robin. Then they killed him.
But he was very interesting when he was introduced in "Batman and Son." I didn't like it when he killed the Spook (I love the Spook! It's great when he turns up in back issues! I wish Morrison would put a little energy into developing characters like the Spook instead of offering him up as fodder for Damian. He could have killed off ... Signal Man!) but that's a quibble because nobody but me cars about the Spook. But other than that, Damian is pretty cool, a force of nature, whomping on Alfred and Tim, throwing tantrums, apologizing to his mother, master of assassins. (I love it when she says, "You haven't ruined anything, darling." I can almost see Sofia Vergara playing Talia.)
"Batman and Son" the trade paperback also has an illustrated text story about the Joker where Grant Morrison shows us how clever he thinks he is. It took me three days to read it, and I forced myself to finish it on the third day so I could get it over with. There's also "Three Ghosts of Batman," a three-part story with a few nice sequences but it doesn't really do much for me as a whole.
I know that "Batman and Son" isn't technically eligible for this forum because it's not quite ten years old but I wanted to review it anyway to show everybody that I'm NOT a Grant Morrison hater. When he writes stories that make sense, I'll give him credit for them.
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Post by chadwilliam on Oct 23, 2014 20:44:03 GMT -5
I thought I'd say a few words about "Batman and Son." I'm not the biggest Grant Morrison fan. I like "Flex Mentallo" (bought it when it was brand new and thought it was great) and "All-Star Superman" is in my Top Five Superman Stories, but his writing on Batman has always left me scratching my head and wondering if he's just pretending when he says he likes the character. It's not something Morrison has a monopoly on to be sure, but perhaps because I love the Jack Schiff era of Batman or just characters such as The Spook (see, you're not the only one) that I was especially irritated by what I'd read of his run. For all his effort spent trying to incorporate as much of Batman's history into his version of the character, he didn't seem to put much effort into retaining the spirit of those tales. He called back to the wonderful tale "Batman - The Superman of Planet X!" just so he could inject some meanspirited Frank Millerish psychosis into a story that deserved to be untouched by such things. The Spook made his first appearance in decades simply to serve as canonfodder as you pointed out. It was Morrison himself who suggested that the Joker is a type of super genius who recreates himself all the time, but the very originator of this notion seemed uninterested in doing anything with the character other than be even MORE crazy and MORE bloodthirsty. I guess I just can't believe that the writers of 2014 are still trying to update things for the 90's. It's too bad because Morrison does have some inspired ideas (and All Star Superman is fantastic) - but no stories into which they really work. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 23, 2014 22:38:05 GMT -5
I originally decided not to say anything about her because she's a minor character from 30 or 40 years ago, but I didn't like the way Morrison treated Francine Langstrom. She's tied up and helpless and they use her to force Kirk Langstrom to give them his Man-Bat formula. She does have a few lines of dialogue when she is released, but she's really just baggage in this story.
The thing is, Francine Langstrom is not just Kirk Langstrom's wife; she has also turned into Man-Bat (Woman-Bat?) on more than one occasion! In her first or second appearance, she turned into a bat! And Man-Bat kidnapped their daughter when he was half-crazed from the serum. Francine is an interesting character in her own right and Morrison just ignored that. (I thought his portrayal of Kirk was kind of lazy as well, but we'll just not go into that.)
It's stuff like this that I find disappointing in Morrison's Batman work. He's not all that and a bag of chips. He's better than average in a field where that doesn't mean very much.
I could say a lot more about your spot-on comments about Morrison's Batman, but I have a few things to do before Gracepoint. Maybe later.
(Although I do want to say that I love the Jack Schiff era. One of my favorite Batman stories of all time is "Prisoners of Three Worlds." Not to mention "Captives of the Alien Zoo!")
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Post by earl on Oct 24, 2014 23:17:16 GMT -5
I thought the parts with the Batmen of All Nations was great in Morrison's Batman run. I read and liked that old 50s story in one of the 100 Page Giants as a little kid, so I knew what it was. Morrison really rounded out and made some cool characters out of those guys like Gaucho, Knight, Squire, Man-O-Bats, Little Raven and Mr. Unknown. The Catwoman team up in Tokyo with Mr. Unknown against the fantastic villain Lord Death Man was a classic romp.
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Post by Jasoomian on Oct 27, 2014 16:43:44 GMT -5
The animated DVD-movie "Son of Batman" is pretty good. It's not a direct adaptation of Morrison's stuff at all. Damian has the same parentage, but that's about it.
There's a new LEGO BATMAN special on in 15+ minutes.
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