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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 6, 2016 18:53:35 GMT -5
I can't remember who pointed it out, it might have been Archie Goodwin, but apparently Shooter didn't have a good understanding or appreciation for comics outside the "mainstream." I get the feeling from things I'm read that he never believed in Epic, for instance. If he would have, it might have been Vertigo before Vertigo.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jan 6, 2016 18:59:32 GMT -5
His reputation as EIC might also be tarnished by comparison to what Kahn, Giordano, and Levitz were doing at DC around the same time. I think DC seemed much more creator-friendly and forward thinking while Shooter looked like he was just trying to get the trains to run on time. (That last part may be a bit hyperbolic.) One thing I always remember: Frank Miller once said that he learned more about telling a story from Shooter than anyone else. And while you can fault him on the stories he chooses to tell, can't argue with his ability to tell them (at least the last time I looked, which may have been like 2003). I can attest to this. I learned more about sequential storytelling in 20 minutes with Shooter--going panel-by-panel over the Kirby Human Torch story in Strange Tales #114--than I did in four years as an art major. His grasp of the medium was both broad and deep. Cei-U! I summon the personal history! I have no doubts about your experience, Cei-U , or Shooter's expertise but I keep remembering an interview Gene Colan did shortly after leaving Marvel and landing at DC. He bemoaned his working with Jim Shooter and claimed Jim forced him to leave, continually criticizing Gene's methods of storytelling. Gene never had to put up with such incessant criticism from anyone throughout his career beforehand. Is it possible that Jim was perhaps too rigid in his preferences, skewing very traditional? I don't know but Colan's interview was very heartfelt and bitter
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 6, 2016 19:01:12 GMT -5
The difference between Roy and Shooter though is that Roy is actually liked across the board, Shooter isn't. A lot of what Shooter did at Marvel seemed a bit uncouth, I'll admit, but I do think that he truly had the best interests of the company at heart A lot of the smartest people I know remind me of Shooter. They make their mark at a young age, develop extreme confidence in themselves, bulldoze over people that they perceive as knowing less than them who get in the way of their vision, and continually prioritize their vision over fostering relationships, eventually completely and totally alienating themselves even if, much of the time, they were right. Shooter wasn't always right, but I think he had more positive ideas as an EIC than anyone who came before him or after. If he'd prioritized people skills and effective leadership, showing respect for those who had ideas and opinions of their own that didn't always coincide with his, he could have transformed the industry even more than he did. The Legion is on the case. (right now, in this month's issue!) ALTER EGO #137
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,712
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Post by shaxper on Jan 6, 2016 19:03:14 GMT -5
A lot of the smartest people I know remind me of Shooter. They make their mark at a young age, develop extreme confidence in themselves, bulldoze over people that they perceive as knowing less than them who get in the way of their vision, and continually prioritize their vision over fostering relationships, eventually completely and totally alienating themselves even if, much of the time, they were right. Shooter wasn't always right, but I think he had more positive ideas as an EIC than anyone who came before him or after. If he'd prioritized people skills and effective leadership, showing respect for those who had ideas and opinions of their own that didn't always coincide with his, he could have transformed the industry even more than he did. The Legion is on the case. (right now, in this month's issue!) ALTER EGO #137Interesting. I wonder where they're going with that.
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Post by Farrar on Jan 6, 2016 19:15:14 GMT -5
His reputation as EIC might also be tarnished by comparison to what Kahn, Giordano, and Levitz were doing at DC around the same time. I think DC seemed much more creator-friendly and forward thinking while Shooter looked like he was just trying to get the trains to run on time. (That last part may be a bit hyperbolic.) One thing I always remember: Frank Miller once said that he learned more about telling a story from Shooter than anyone else. And while you can fault him on the stories he chooses to tell, can't argue with his ability to tell them (at least the last time I looked, which may have been like 2003). I can attest to this. I learned more about sequential storytelling in 20 minutes with Shooter--going panel-by-panel over the Kirby Human Torch story in Strange Tales #114--than I did in four years as an art major. His grasp of the medium was both broad and deep. Cei-U! I summon the personal history! Edited transcripts of his "Storytelling Lecture, Strange Tales" are available online, on his blog. The series is in 6 parts, here's the link to Part 1 and then just continue on to the rest of it. Illuminating and fascinating. www.jimshooter.com/2011/05/storytelling-lecture-strange-tales-part.html
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 6, 2016 19:25:24 GMT -5
My first fake profile (No, I don't do that anymore mods. ) on the internet, during the old Wizard World forum days in the late 90's early 2000's, was based on Jim Shooter. I'd end each post with an observational section called "Shooterism's" which basically painted Shooter as a wolf to female interns, a tyrant to most of the male staff and a constant thorn in the side of John Byrne. He'd do stuff like call Byrne into his office, only to tell him to get out as soon as he walked in, and brag about it for the rest of the day. I'm both ashamed and proud of this.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 6, 2016 19:41:49 GMT -5
My first fake profile (No, I don't do that anymore mods. ) on the internet, during the old Wizard World forum days in the late 90's early 2000's, was based on Jim Shooter. I'd end each post with an observational section called "Shooterism's" which basically painted Shooter as a wolf to female interns, a tyrant to most of the male staff and a constant thorn in the side of John Byrne. He'd do stuff like call Byrne into his office, only to tell him to get out as soon as he walked in, and brag about it for the rest of the day. I'm both ashamed and proud of this. I think we've all done things on the internet, during one time or another, that we're not proud of ;p
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 9, 2016 23:29:26 GMT -5
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #2 Story Title: “Seven Doomed Men!” Cover Date: July, 1963 Credits
Script: Stan Lee Pencils: Jack Kirby Inks: Dick Ayers Colors: Stan Goldberg Letters: Artie Simek Cover Art: Jack Kirby (pencils); Dick Ayers (inks) Synopsis: The Commandos are sent on a mission to make sure that a German weapon development center never receives a shipment of heavy water which will let them develop an atomic bomb. The Howlers succeed in stopping the shipment and destroying the base. Character Appearances: Sergeant Nick Fury; the Howling Commandos [Corporal Dum Dum Dugan; Robert Ralston [Rebel Ralston]; Jonathan Juniper; Gabe Jones; Izzy Cohen; Dino Manelli]; Captain Happy Sam Sawyer Comments: When reading Sgt. Fury, it’s interesting to compare Stan Lee’s editorializing to Jack Kirby’s apparent intentions. In some scenes in this issue, it’s clear that the commandos flat out kill the enemy, but in others Stan’s dialog indicates that one of the Howler’s showed his enemy mercy. One particular scene stands out where Dum Dum finds himself in a mini-bunker with two Nazi’s. The art indicates that Dum Dum jumps up and out of the bunker and shoots the Nazi’s like rats. However, Stan’s dialog has Dum Dum saying, “Drop your guns’n get lost!” Another thing that stands out in these early Sgt. Fury stories is how easy it is to blow up tanks in the Marvel Universe. At least during WWII. One grenade or a few sticks of well-placed dynamite, and those suckers go BOOM!. Kirby and Ayers do a fine job on the art as usual, though certain panels seem a bit sparse on the detail. Obviously this has to do with both men being overworked during this period and simply not having the time to be precious with every panel. I think I like the “ugly” Sgt. Fury we get in these early issues. Fury, like many characters in the MU, will gradually get more handsome as the years roll by. I like the warts and all approach, even though I was first introduced to the more dashing Fury of the 70’s and 80’s. Character Development: Fury continues to be a hard-ass…except when being put back in line by “Happy” Sam Sawyer. As funny as Fury is with the hard-ass routine, I think I’d go AWOL if literally every response by my commander was an insult. Maybe I’m just too thin-skinned? Personal Rating: 6. This was a solid issue that is the very definition of “action packed.” Besides the short interlude where they get their orders from Sawyer, the issue is all combat. This is good and bad, depending on your outlook, but I'd like to see a bit more down-time and characterization. Historical Rating: 5. Nothing new or innovative was introduced, but that’s a bit unfair given the context of a WWII comic that needs to stay somewhat grounded in reality.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 10, 2016 8:27:46 GMT -5
I can attest to this. I learned more about sequential storytelling in 20 minutes with Shooter--going panel-by-panel over the Kirby Human Torch story in Strange Tales #114--than I did in four years as an art major. His grasp of the medium was both broad and deep. Cei-U! I summon the personal history! I have no doubts about your experience, Cei-U , or Shooter's expertise but I keep remembering an interview Gene Colan did shortly after leaving Marvel and landing at DC. He bemoaned his working with Jim Shooter and claimed Jim forced him to leave, continually criticizing Gene's methods of storytelling. Gene never had to put up with such incessant criticism from anyone throughout his career beforehand. Is it possible that Jim was perhaps too rigid in his preferences, skewing very traditional? I don't know but Colan's interview was very heartfelt and bitter I am a big Jim Shooter supporter and I'm glad that the posters here are being fair about what he did and what he was. Unfortunately, he might not have gotten along with Colan and maybe criticized his work too much. We will never know. But remember, there are great artists that have been accused of phoning it in on some jobs. Maybe he felt Colan was doing that. Colan went from Marvel to DC and did GREAT work on Batman and Nightforce , so maybe he just needed a change of scenery.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 10, 2016 9:18:57 GMT -5
Strange Tales #110 Story Title: “The Wizard and Paste-Pot Pete!” Cover Date: July, 1963 CreditsScript: Stan Lee (plot); Ernie Hart [as H.E. Huntley] (script) Pencils: Dick Ayers Inks: Dick Ayers Colors: Stan Goldberg Letters: Joe Duffy (interiors); Artie Simek (cover) Cover Art: Jack Kirby (pencils); Dick Ayers (inks) Synopsis: Johnny practices on his obstacle course, then thinks back on his adventures with The Wizard and Paste-Pot Pete. By a wild coincidence, Pete breaks The Wizard out of jail and the two join forces. They frame Johnny as a spy, but their partnership is strained by Wiz's megalomania. The Torch eventually tricks the duo with a phony newspaper story, and after surviving The Wizard’s death-trap, defeats the villains and turns them over to the police. Character Appearances: Human Torch [Johnny Storm]; Wizard [Bentley Wittman]; Paste-Pot Pete [Peter Petruski]; Mister Fantastic [Reed Richards] (cameo); Thing [Ben Grimm] (cameo); Invisible Girl [Sue Storm] (cameo) Comments: I have to say that I enjoyed this story a bit more than I should have. Thanks’ to Huntley’s writing, it still reads more like a typical DC comic of the period, but the charm lies in the goofy, bickering interplay between the two villains. Pete remains as notoriously ridiculous as ever, and the Wizard is still at this point a bland evil super-genius, but there is enough here to build on, as Stan and Jack would later do with great skill. I continue to enjoy Ayer’s penciling and feel he’s an underrated giant of the Silver Age. It’s too bad that his work, outside of his upcoming run on Sgt. Fury, was mostly relegated to these mediocre Human Torch stories. If he would have taken over for, say, X-Men or Avengers, and gotten to work directly with Stan, I think he’d be far more acclaimed. Character Development: About the only thing of note is when the Torch bristles at the notion of the FF lending him a hand. They’re starting to do a better job of reminding the reader that the Torch is still a teenager outside of the obvious homework and school scenes. Personal Rating: 5. This issue was a bit better than most of what’s come so far, but this mainly has to do with the villain team-up. The Torch still needs better villains, a decent supporting cast/partner and more innovative plots to work. Historical Rating: 6. I give this one a higher than average grade for the team-up between Paste-Pot Pete and The Wizard. While they’re no Doctor Doom and Sub-Mariner, little touches like this slowly build up the cohesive feel of the shared universe concept that would become one of Marvel’s strengths.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 10, 2016 9:49:43 GMT -5
Strange Tales #110 Story Title: "Dr. Strange Master of Black Magic!" CreditsScript: Steve Ditko (plot); Stan Lee (script) Pencils: Steve Ditko Inks: Steve Ditko Colors: Stan Goldberg Letters: Terry Szenics Synopsis: Doctor Strange is called on by a man having bad dreams. After entering the man's dream in his astral form, Doctor Strange confronts Nightmare and manages to escape his dream dimension with the aid of "The Master." The man’s dreams reveal that he is guilty of fraud and Strange makes him confess. Character Appearances: Dr. Strange [Stephen Strange] (introduction); Wong (introduction, unnamed); Ancient One [Yao] (introduction, called "the Master"); Nightmare (introduction) Comments: The debut of Doctor Strange has always been one of my favorite Marvel Age introductions. Even though the series will go on to far greater heights of imagination and cosmic adventure, there is something about the underlying tone of this short five page story that has always impressed me. My favorite part of the story is the opening page: Ditko's art is at its moodiest here; the rain dripping on the window pane, the nervous desperation of the man as he lights his cigarette, the mood set by the choice of dark colors and use of shadow, all combine to make this a brilliant piece of storytelling. It also goes without saying that the design of Doctor Strange is impressive and something completely different from what we've seen so far from a lead character. You get the sense that Strange is meant to be much older than he appears with his "my ancient foe" remark when he encounters Nightmare. Little touches like that lend to the feeling of antiquity of Strange's world. Overall, the story is surprisingly eerie, even for a superhero comic dealing with black magic. We never get a good look at the sinister Nightmare as he rides around on a his spectral horse and the robed phantom, meant to symbolize the man's evil deeds and guilt, is a creepy touch that works well in the context of the story. Just a great debut story overall for the soon to be Sorcerer Supreme. Character Development: Strange is depicted as being very stern, curt and to the point in this debut issue. It's clear that he has a deep bond with the Ancient One only hinted at in this very brief episode. Personal Rating: 8. This is clearly one of the stronger first appearances we've seen so far. Usually these very short stories suffer from sheer brevity, but this one came together brilliantly. Even though Strange is in my Top 5 in terms of favorite Marvel heroes, I think I'd give this story the same score even if that wasn't the case. Historical Rating: 9. Given the massive importance of Strange in the Marvel Universe, and the fact that he's now important enough to warrant a big budget movie, I think it's proper to give his debut a very strong nine rating. The only thing that prevents me from giving this a ten is the fact that Strange, while popular in his own way, never reached the heights of Spider-Man, the FF, or later, the Hulk.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 11, 2016 9:52:19 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense #43 Story Title: “Kala, Queen of the Netherworld!” Cover Date: July, 1963 CreditsScript: Stan Lee (plot); Robert Bernstein [as R. Berns] (script) Pencils: Jack Kirby Inks: Don Heck Colors: Stan Goldberg Letters: Artie Simek Cover Art: Jack Kirby (pencils); Dick Ayers (inks) Synopsis: Stark is abducted by the queen of an underground kingdom to help her invade the surface. Stark tricks her into giving him materials and a private lab and creates a duplicate of his Iron Man armor. As Iron Man, he defeats Kala’s forces and abducts her, taking her to the surface. Stark shows her that she would rapidly age on the surface, convincing her to call off the invasion. Iron Man convinces her to marry her sensible general, Baxu, and they all depart in friendship. Character Appearances: Iron Man [Tony Stark]; Kala (introduction); General Baxu (introduction); Jim; Evans Comments: This otherwise mediocre issue has a very interesting continuity snafu. Kala tells Stark the story of her race, relating that they were all once citizens of Atlantis before it sank into the ocean. Bafflingly, their domed city just kept on singing till it reached the Earth’s core. The obvious problem here is that this city, now known as “The Netherworld,” couldn’t have been Atlantis since that fabled civilization has already been well chronicled in the Marvel Universe with the history of Sub-Mariner. I realized that this story had to have been retconned at some point and found this explanation from the Marvel wiki: “Before the continent of Atlantis sank about 20,000 years ago, its civilization had reached great technological heights. The priests and intellectuals of the city of Netheria in the southern part of the Atlantean continent foresaw that Atlantis would be attacked by the Deviant Empire based in Lemuria. Therefore, the people of Netheria enclosed their city in a dome of an unknown plastic like substance and excavated and fortified their city's foundations. Consequently, when Atlantis sank, Netheria remained intact, and its people survived, having discovered a means a recycling their air supply. Netheria sank more deeply over the years until it finally came to rest in a huge sub-sea cavern. The Netherians renamed their realm the Netherworld, and were thereafter known as Netherworlders.” Somehow a huge sub-sea cavern makes a bit more sense than and entire city sinking to the core of the Earth. A rudimentary understanding of geology would have really helped this story out. That said, I had a hunch that the Lemurian Deviant’s would play some role in the eventual retcon. Interestingly, Kala’s next appearance is in Fantastic Four #127 (1972) and there is no mention of any of this, save for a brief editorial comment that she, and her race, are of no relation to Namor and his people. I was a bit surprised that Roy Thomas didn't take the chance to pounce on this incongruity and explain it all. Character Development: We’re still seeing Stark operating on two levels with very little nuance; suave ladies’ man and brilliant inventor. The lack of a supporting cast isn’t allowing him to develop past this point, I’m afraid. Personal Rating: 3. I didn’t enjoy this issue at all beyond the continuity error. Bernstein’s writing was the worst I’ve read so far, and that’s saying something. Cliché followed cliché without a moment of real humor or charm. Even the Kirby layouts and Heck art seemed uninspired. Very generic. Historical Rating: 5. Kala and the Netherworlder’s are an interesting, if confusing, addition to the Marvel Universe. It’s the only thing that saves the issue form being completely forgettable.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 11, 2016 17:52:17 GMT -5
I figured I'd ask this here since it's relevant to the thread: How do you folks feel about Alan Moore's homage/lampoon of classic Marvel with his "1963" mini-series?
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 11, 2016 21:20:22 GMT -5
I read the first issue of 1963 years back, but it didn't make all that much of an impression on me. I think the satire is a bit too forced for my tastes and I prefer Alan Moore writing stories where he doesn't indulge in faux nostalgia. I might have a different opinion if I read the run today. I'm a big fan of his writing, though, and love his Swamp Thing, From Hell, Watchmen, etc. I think his ABC stuff is fantastic.
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Post by MDG on Jan 12, 2016 12:48:13 GMT -5
I really enjoyed it. I really didn't see it as a parody as much as a recreation. Moor and most of the artists got the "tone" right.
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