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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 13, 2023 11:32:19 GMT -5
I think underlying the question in this case, which started with discussion in another thread, is some folks here cannot get their heads around how the 90's and beyond (or post Bronze Age in general) could ever stack up to earlier material. When I look at my stack of old Astro City comics, Kingdom Come, Doom 2099, Starman, Sandman Mystery Theatre, various Elseworlds, my Seth Fisher books from early-mid 2000's, and so many more, they represent times that have come and gone with their share of great content. And even all the bad books from those years, they were part of the ride back then as well (just like any other era). I don't struggle with the term "classic" encompassing both individual highlights of a period along with an umbrella timeline grouping for general descriptive purposes. Add the simple fact the 90's started almost 34 years ago, it's a bit absurd to "reserve" the classic label for what an older generation has somehow deemed worthy. I can't pick a selection from this poll because the "plastic age" does not hit the mark for me, 2000 feels old enough, but 2020 does not. A rolling 10 to 15 years hits the mark for me as a general use rule of thumb. Comics tend to change enough within that amount of time, as does the reading audience. I think there is some fine work in the 90s and some I would term classics; same for the 00s; but, I find more and more material from the 90s onward as being more slavishly derivative, as you have a generation of creators at work whose only formative dramatic material was comic books. The earlier generations had more dramatic inspirations and applied more of them to their comics work. There are exceptions, as there are to everything; but, I liken it to music, where corporatization brought homogenization and I kind of feel the same thing happened in comics, even at the indie level. More effort was made in mirroring DC and Marvel than trying to stand out, with some notable exceptions. That is part of why I find fewer later era classics than earlier. In my personal collecting and reading, the 90s were a period of greatly reduced interest, which continued into the 00s and beyond. I found that a lot of what passed for material in the mainstream felt like a rehash of old work, right down to panel progressions. That feeling became stronger and stronger into the 00s, to the point that there were select few superhero comics I wanted to read.. It was less true with non-superhero material, though I found a lot things like Vertigo to have a certain sameness about them, with notable exceptions. Like I say, it is subjective. I'm sure others, who were of a younger age and with less history behind their reading reacted differently. If your first X-Men was during the Jim Lee era, you didn't have the previous Cockrum and Byrne eras to see Chris Claremont rehashing Alien again, or the latest variation of Dark Phoenix, or whatever cliche he had developed. "Classic" is always going to be personal to what meant something to you in your formative period, regardless of subject (movies, music, comics..whatever).
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 13, 2023 12:15:45 GMT -5
@supercat2099 and I disagree about a lot of things, but I agree with him pretty much 100% here.
I also find it interesting, though hardly surprising, that this conversation is incredibly super-hero centric. Which is generally true whenever the various "ages" of comics are talked about. The idea that Bone and its incredible success in alternate venues than the comic shop ghetto or the rise of things like Dog Man, Diary of a Wimpy Kid or Raina Telgemeier's books haven't been a sea change is silly. And that leaves completely aside the rise of Manga (they're still funnybooks, guys).
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Post by Ozymandias on Dec 13, 2023 15:20:59 GMT -5
The superhero genre is the only one that's evolved exclusively in the comic medium. It's the only one where talking about ages makes sense.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 13, 2023 16:02:21 GMT -5
The superhero genre is the only one that's evolved exclusively in the comic medium. It's the only one where talking about ages makes sense. I have no idea why it's the only one that makes sense in that context. Other than the insularity of superhero fans.
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Post by Ozymandias on Dec 13, 2023 16:11:04 GMT -5
Does it make sense to talk about ages, based on the evolution of, say, western or sci-fi in comics, when most of their evolution took place in cinema or literature?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 13, 2023 16:21:41 GMT -5
Does it make sense to talk about ages, based on the evolution of, say, western or sci-fi in comics, when most of their evolution took place in cinema or literature? What makes more sense is to talk about the evolution of comics as a whole as opposed to pretending that one genre is the entire medium. Ultimately, the "age" classification is utterly useless except as short-hand for long-underwear funnybooks. On this I have come to the point of view of Cei-U!. The "ages" scheme is reductive and ultimately works against an actual useful view of comics history. But to answer your question...I can't come up with any reason you can't talk about the evolution of westerns or SF in the comics medium. In fact it would be pretty refreshing.
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Post by Ozymandias on Dec 13, 2023 16:53:52 GMT -5
In the question itself, there was already a reason.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 13, 2023 17:13:32 GMT -5
I think underlying the question in this case, which started with discussion in another thread, is some folks here cannot get their heads around how the 90's and beyond (or post Bronze Age in general) could ever stack up to earlier material. When I look at my stack of old Astro City comics, Kingdom Come, Doom 2099, Starman, Sandman Mystery Theatre, various Elseworlds, my Seth Fisher books from early-mid 2000's, and so many more, they represent times that have come and gone with their share of great content. And even all the bad books from those years, they were part of the ride back then as well (just like any other era). I don't struggle with the term "classic" encompassing both individual highlights of a period along with an umbrella timeline grouping for general descriptive purposes. Add the simple fact the 90's started almost 34 years ago, it's a bit absurd to "reserve" the classic label for what an older generation has somehow deemed worthy. I can't pick a selection from this poll because the "plastic age" does not hit the mark for me, 2000 feels old enough, but 2020 does not. A rolling 10 to 15 years hits the mark for me as a general use rule of thumb. Comics tend to change enough within that amount of time, as does the reading audience. Marvel has taken to doing some epics of 90s and later material and calling them 'Modern Classics' That works for me I think for some people they just need a new term.. I compared it to music in the other thread... my wife doesn't like it when things like Nirvana and Linkin Park are referred to as 'classic rock' since in her mind Classic rock was in the 60s and 70s (even though those bands are now the same age as the original classics were when we started thinking of them as such). Honestly, I think this is more a debate/discussion about dealing with aging more than what is a classic comic. For practical purposes, I'm very happy to stick with 'Golden Age/Silver Age' etc in my own mind, though after the Bronze age in my head I call from after Crisis to oh, about Flashpoint and Hickman the 'IMage Age' and since the 'reboot age' While Slam is totally correct that only refers to super hero comics... I am not knowledgable about the breadth of other genres to do a similar classification. I know manga decided to have ridiculously long and overly descriptive names at some point in the last few years, and that Sword Art Online started the Ishigai (Sp) genre that seems to dominate the landscape over straight Shonen, but I don't really follow the industry enough to give time periods and trends. You could definitely do some market analysis... like the consolidation of the industry after the comic Code..the rise and fall of the western, the jungle comic, the romance comic, the war comic... the the rise and fall of black and white indies to the birth of Image and creator owned shops, but that's a totally different sort of classification. For purposes of this forum.. the 10 year rule works pretty well IMO. I'd be ok with it being 15 if that's what everyone thinks.... but not more.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 13, 2023 17:14:46 GMT -5
The superhero genre is the only one that's evolved exclusively in the comic medium. It's the only one where talking about ages makes sense. Not so! Movies have dominated the medium for the last 15 years... arguably longer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2023 17:22:07 GMT -5
Honestly, I think this is more a debate/discussion about dealing with aging more than what is a classic comic. 100% Here's a little random search I did, a survey from just a year ago on Reddit: I think when you cast the net wide, it becomes apparent how diverse generational perceptions are.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 13, 2023 17:30:51 GMT -5
wouldn't have expected that! very interesting!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 13, 2023 17:34:00 GMT -5
In the question itself, there was already a reason. The question pre-supposes your answer. My answer is no. I don't see any reason that the evolution of SF in literature or movies means you can't look at its evolution in comics. It's like saying you can't look at literary noir because that term was first applied to films noir. Or vice-versa because the films absolutely came out (by and large) of adaptations of the literature.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 13, 2023 17:35:48 GMT -5
Honestly, I think this is more a debate/discussion about dealing with aging more than what is a classic comic. 100% Here's a little random search I did, a survey from just a year ago on Reddit: I think when you cast the net wide, it becomes apparent how diverse generational perceptions are. That's absolutely what it is, wildfire2099 . It doesn't help that this particular board skews even older than the general superhero reading population.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 13, 2023 17:38:42 GMT -5
That's a good point... and if you grew up with the 90s (I bet alot of those folks were more in on the Cartoon than the actual comics) you're definitely the right age to be nostalgic about it now.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Dec 13, 2023 17:41:21 GMT -5
The superhero genre is the only one that's evolved exclusively in the comic medium. It's the only one where talking about ages makes sense. Not so! Movies have dominated the medium for the last 15 years... arguably longer. Not to mention a lot of the Superman mythos developed in the radio program (flying, Jimmy Olsen, Daily Planet, Kryptonite) parts of the Batman mythos evolved from the serials (Batcave) and and the 1960s TV show (some villains, Batgirl, etc.) and then there are the comic strips which are a whole other can of worms on the development of super-heroes outside of comic books, so superhero development has been taking place outside of comics since the 1940s and has never been the exclusive purview of comic books. -M
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