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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 15, 2020 9:19:03 GMT -5
I was reading the 2007 Infinity Inc. series this week (I love Steel and Natasha.. been meaning to grab it for a while)... it's pretty interesting, but clearly had not chance to survive more than the 12 issues it got... You take a minor character like Natasha and make her the headline of a team book with some new character and some retreads, and there's no chance, no matter how good (and it is actually decent) it's going to catch on fast enough to survive.
Add to that using random unknown artists (the tone completely changes from one to the next), and it's clearly doomed to fail.
They only need a one shot to keep the trademark...so why pretend these sort of books have a chance? Is it making creators happy? Filling the shelves?
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 15, 2020 9:45:07 GMT -5
I was reading the 2007 Infinity Inc. series this week (I love Steel and Natasha.. been meaning to grab it for a while)... it's pretty interesting, but clearly had not chance to survive more than the 12 issues it got... You take a minor character like Natasha and make her the headline of a team book with some new character and some retreads, and there's no chance, no matter how good (and it is actually decent) it's going to catch on fast enough to survive. Add to that using random unknown artists (the tone completely changes from one to the next), and it's clearly doomed to fail. They only need a one shot to keep the trademark...so why pretend these sort of books have a chance? Is it making creators happy? Filling the shelves? Probably as much spreading costs over more units. Make it enough for a trade book and you can recoup costs over a longer period. Probably marketing, as well, as buyers are more likely to try a new series than a one shot. I don't think anyone at either com[pany has the faintest clue as to what will sell, anymore, and that marketing people and other corporate flunkies are dictating publishing decisions. DC hasn't had anyone with publishing experience since Paul Levitz was pushed out; and, no, I don't count Jim Lee. |
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Post by The Captain on Feb 15, 2020 10:06:45 GMT -5
I always question this approach as well. Every time Marvel launches a new Blade or Nova book, I think to myself "this has 12 issues, 18 tops", and then they usually cut it short and end it at 8 or 10 issues anyway. Marvel is putting out a new Spider-Woman book in March, and she once had a series run 50 issues in the Bronze Age, but realistically, how long is this going to last in the current environment? Will it see 2021?
If they have a story to tell using those characters, is it better to produce it and sell it as a one-shot GN from the outset, or put out the monthly issues over a period of months, hoping to get some sales that way (and most of these kinds of books quickly fall below the 20K or 10K threshold anyway) before getting the TPB on the shelves, getting reduced sales from the GN numbers because X number of people already bought the floppies?
I don't buy mini-series any more, and I rarely give new series a shot unless it is a "big" character (relaunches of Captain America, Dr. Strange, etc.). If I am interested, I either pick up the individual books from the $1 bins six months down the road or trade-wait, since I have a ton of Amazon gift cards and can get them virtually for free.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 15, 2020 16:11:28 GMT -5
I do feel like it would make sense to put such things out as a trade to begin with... lets say 25k people are willing to by a new Nova series.... most of those 25k people would likely buy a $14.99 trade as easily as they would a $4.99 #1.. then you get all the money up front.
I get why small presses don't do that... they have cash flow issues. Marvel and DC don't though, they're loss leaders/advertising for movies at this point anyway, why not do it better?
I guess it probably goes back to not having a 'publisher' in charge.. they don't know anything but the bronze age business model, which clearly doesn't work.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 16:38:58 GMT -5
I do feel like it would make sense to put such things out as a trade to begin with... lets say 25k people are willing to by a new Nova series.... most of those 25k people would likely buy a $14.99 trade as easily as they would a $4.99 #1.. then you get all the money up front. I get why small presses don't do that... they have cash flow issues. Marvel and DC don't though, they're loss leaders/advertising for movies at this point anyway, why not do it better? I guess it probably goes back to not having a 'publisher' in charge.. they don't know anything but the bronze age business model, which clearly doesn't work. Except the existing direct market fan base has shown over and over again that they are resistant to buying new content in any other format than ongoing periodicals. Sales on other formats are abyssmal in the direct market. It works for customers outside the direct market, but then the content has to be aimed towards that type of customer as well, and its not the same type of content that appeals to the direct market customer. You would expect that if the direct market customer was interested in the content of (using your example of a new Nova series), they would also be willing to get the same content in the OGN at $14.99, except analagous real series show that sales of new material in OGN format is lucky to break 5K units n the direct market. Marvel tried it with a series of OGN that included the Starlin Thanos/Infinity series but also featured top talent on Avengers, X-Men and Spider-Man OGN and they all tanked in sales. The overwhelming feedback from the direct market customer base was I would have bought it if it were in a monthly comic but I am not going to buy it as an OGN, so Marvel killed the line. You can't teach an old dog new tricks and the direct market customer base has proven again and again they are the old dogs and their buying habits won't learn any new tricks. The dilemma for Marvel and DC (and other direct market publishers) is that there are 2 distinct markets for comics out there-one-the direct market customer base wants one type of content in only one acceptable to them format. The second, the mass market book trade customer base is larger and growing, but has shown zero interest in the typical content or formats that sell in the direct market. So either they need to produce content for both markets and sell it in formats acceptable to that particular market (which raises cries of Marvel and DC are abandoning their loyal customer base from the direct market customer base when they do and adversely affects sales within that direct market base), or choose one or the other to cater to. DC is producing both types of content & formats right now, Marvel has chosen to concentrate on the direct market audience. Image seems to be shifting towards the OGN model slightly as more and more of the creators who choose to work with Image are beginning to adopt that model as single issue sales have been shrinking. It may make sense to shift formats in some ways, but the customer reactions and buying habits, and the adverse reaction to change the customer base has and its impact on actual sales work against it. If they are going to move to an OGN based format, they will need to move towards the mass market audience with the type of content they produce and likely abandon the direct market altogether, which would create a seismic shift in the status quo of the industry. But the other factor to look at, which no one does, is creator compensation. Most of the book publishers with GN divisions which have adopted the OGN format use an advance and royalty compensation system, not a page rate compensation system. For Marvel and DC to fully embrace the shift to an OGN system, they would have to change the way they compensate creators to compete for talent in that market. However a lot of the talent who choose to work for Marvel and DC currently, do so for the steady income the page rate provides on a monthly basis. And a lot of creators don't want to lose that and might look for work outside the comics industry is that were to change. Do there are a lot of dominoes in such a format change that go beyond just how much a particular format is currently selling in the market that fans and consumers don't look at when discussing it, and that behind the curtain stuff is vastly bigger factors in the decision making process than the stuff fans typically see. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 16:47:09 GMT -5
PS You are also asking the retailer, who has to buy on a non-returnable basis, to take a greater risk and tie up more of his available capital buying a $14.99 OGN rather than a $3.99 comic. If (and usually when) it doesn't sell, he loses more money per unsold copy and has less of a chance to make up the loss with other product because he has more capital invested in that product. That in and of itself, is going to limit sales on such product because publishers are selling to retailers, not end customers.
The book trade, which allows for returns on unsold units, is different and minimizes the risk and investment of the retailer, allowing them to better support such a format.
-M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 15, 2020 19:07:35 GMT -5
Do people actually buy trades at comic shops? I’m not being flip. I honestly don’t know because last time I lived within two hours of a comic shop trades weren’t nearly as big a thing as they are now and the shop didn’t carry that many. That was also in the infancy of Amazon and EBay and I could get trades tons cheaper there than at a comic shop.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 15, 2020 20:02:18 GMT -5
I dunno. Freaking Black Cat (the Spider-Man affiliated one) # 1 was the best selling comic of the month not too long ago. The occasional Ms. Marvel style hit is worth the 40-50 failures.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 15, 2020 22:50:13 GMT -5
When have Marvel or DC ever tried OGNs that are in continuity? The last time was probably God Loves, Man Kills, right? Those recent ones that you're talking about were expensive HCs and not really in continuity.. so it's easy to say they don't count. Asking $24.99 - $29.99 is alot different than $14.99.
Slam's right, probably the direct market isn't necessarily going to sell alot of trades, but that doesn't mean they won't sell. Maybe getting books in stores that could appeal to both new and existing readers might work.
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Post by rberman on Feb 15, 2020 22:53:46 GMT -5
When have Marvel or DC ever tried OGNs that are in continuity? The last time was probably God Loves, Man Kills, right? Not originally intended as continuity IIRC, because spinner buyers like me never saw it at the time. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 23:18:49 GMT -5
When have Marvel or DC ever tried OGNs that are in continuity? The last time was probably God Loves, Man Kills, right? Those recent ones that you're talking about were expensive HCs and not really in continuity.. so it's easy to say they don't count. Asking $24.99 - $29.99 is alot different than $14.99. Slam's right, probably the direct market isn't necessarily going to sell alot of trades, but that doesn't mean they won't sell. Maybe getting books in stores that could appeal to both new and existing readers might work. A lot more recently than that, they had an OGN program between 2013 and 2015 that they canelled because sales were abyssmal and the feedback I mentioned in my previous post was all over comic sites regarding those OGNs in terms of not wanting to buy it inthat format but would have bought it if released in single issues. The program included... Avengers Endless Wartime by Warren Ellis & Mike McKone 2013 Avengers Rage of Ultron by Rick Remender & Jerome Opena 2015 Spider-Man Family Business by Mark Waid, James Robinson & Werther & Gabriel Dell 2014 X-Men: No More Humans by Mike Carey & Salvador Larocca 2014 and the three Starlin Infinity/Thanos OGN were originally supposed to be in continuity until Marvel decided to go a different direction with Thanos leading to the falling out with Marvel and Starlin. and as for being $24-$29.99 most of them got softcover releases a at 14.99 within a year of the hc release and those sold even worse than the hardcovers did. So a list talent on original material in continuity and people didn't want it, but it doesn't count because... -M |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 23:24:21 GMT -5
You also have to take into consideration that Diamond is a risk averse company, and they don't like buying material form the publishers they cannot sell out of within a month or two of its release and they were not happy with the format either and their input was another strong reason Marvel discontinued it. And if Diamond, as the gatekeeper to the market, doesn't ant to carry a particular type of product, and won't give it the push or support it needs, then you really have no path to market with the product, unless you are going through the book trade, but then, those customers have already demonstrated they don't want that type of content regardless of format, so it's a lose lose situation for the publishers.
-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 16, 2020 21:42:38 GMT -5
Those are the ones I'm thinking of... I have 3 of the 4 of them, and they are definitely NOT in continuity. If they were meant to be, they epically failed.
Diamond isn't who would be selling them... they need to be with Ingram and Baker and Taylor if book stores are going stock them properly.. I know they have the channel, because when I worked for a book store Ingram was selling Marvel and DC trades. To be honest, I think alot of the evils of the industry can be traced to attempting to appease Diamond.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2020 23:51:33 GMT -5
Those are the ones I'm thinking of... I have 3 of the 4 of them, and they are definitely NOT in continuity. If they were meant to be, they epically failed. Diamond isn't who would be selling them... they need to be with Ingram and Baker and Taylor if book stores are going stock them properly.. I know they have the channel, because when I worked for a book store Ingram was selling Marvel and DC trades. To be honest, I think alot of the evils of the industry can be traced to attempting to appease Diamond. The problem is those types of books are DOA in the book trade. That's not the type of content those who are buying comics in the book trade want. Here's the essential problem-you are proposing content that appeals to the direct format fan in a format they don't want, and a format book trade customers want but featuring content they don't, so it's not going to appeal or sell to either customer base. You are also not addressing all the other behind the curtain factors publishers would have to address (structure of payment to creators, backlash from your retail partners who do work through Diamond who feel left out and as a result cut orders on your other product, etc. that would all have to be addressed before such a program could be launched. Add to it that publishers no longer sell to end customers. They sell to distributors, and if the distributors don't like the product, don't support the product and don't carry the product, you will not reach an end customer. The track record of such books has proven to be bad for sales, so you would have to show potential distributors what you are doing different because if you are doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome because reasons, they are not going to be interested in the product. Distributors make their money in volume, and you have to show them a product can move in enough volume to make it worth their while or they will choose to carry a different product simply because of the opportunity costs involved in wasting resources (time, manpower, capital, etc.) on a product that is not going to move enough units to justify carrying it. What are you giving them that they can pin a campaign on to move it to their clients? Hey we got these books featuring superheroes in original stories. They do really well in the movies just don't look at the actual sales track record of books featuring these character sin the book trade because it's abysmal. That should get retailers lining up to buy product form them right? (If you don't think Marvel's track record in the book trade has been abysmal, I suggest looking at Brian Hobbs analysis of the Book Scan numbers for Marvel going all the way back to the turn of the century. It's not pretty and it's not going to entice anyone to want to pony up and take a risk on a new type of offering from them). -M |
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Post by brutalis on Feb 17, 2020 8:36:28 GMT -5
More proof of the death of comic books is that Alan Giroux owner of All About Books and Comics has attempted to sell his store to anyone interested in owning an LCS and to his own Store Manager buying him out to maintain the already built business and customers and NONE are willing to devote their life and efforts into something that is in DECLINE. It takes more effort and cost to keep an LCS running and the declining sales of the monthly new issues just doesn't generate the necessary weekly monetary expenses occurred. i have spoken about this time and again with him and he has stated that each month it continues in getting worse and that part of his reason for retiring is the continued overhead of simply maintaining the stores daily operations.
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