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Post by rberman on Apr 2, 2019 14:39:52 GMT -5
I don't want to make this too much of a philosophical debate, but the problem starts for me with the origin of "good men don't kill"--being derived from The Ten Commandments, at the very least in our Western World. It's a hypocritical and mixed message, given the Old Testament God's penchant for being bloodthirsty, not only in commanding the Jews to commit genocides during wartime, but in his bizarre and violent behavior against his loyal followers (Moses being attacked by an angel for no reason, Abraham and Issac Jonah, etc.). From what I understand, that "thou shalt not kill" really meant "thou shalt not kill one of your own people." The implication is more against murder than warfare or capital punishment.
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Post by zaku on Apr 2, 2019 16:12:59 GMT -5
If anyone is interested, I believe this is one of the best articles about the complicate relationship between Batman and guns. Batman And Guns
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Post by chadwilliam on Apr 2, 2019 21:26:07 GMT -5
The Joker forces Batman to kill. From World's Finest 61 (1952). If you have kids in the room I'd suggest you contrive a reason for them to leave.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Apr 3, 2019 3:10:55 GMT -5
In the original Hebrew it's 'Thou shalt not murder.' 'Kill' is a mistranslation.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Apr 7, 2019 9:59:45 GMT -5
Have to admit, I like the idea of Batman starting off as a grimdark, humourless, merciless killer, then experiencing a redemption arc which transforms him into a non-lethal-but-still-kickass Bronze Age-style Batman. This is a story I'm very surprised no one has told, despite Morrison adopting it as the backbone of his run and laying it out perfectly in his interview with Kevin Smith.
Batman started out as a cold and violent vigilante, and then he met the boy and through him rediscovered his humanity and he became something greater.
I'm actually wrong, because one man set out to tell that story: Frank Miller. In-between the horrendous writing of All-Star Batman and Robin, buried under all of the insanity, is the thread of Dick Grayson pulling Bruce Wayne back from the brink. And it's in those rare moments where Miller gets to the point, razer thin in the fat of madness, that ASBAR is surprisingly beautiful.
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Post by electricmastro on May 22, 2020 12:49:11 GMT -5
I think the same way for any heroes who risk their lives to defend the societies they want to protect, whether the villain ends up getting killed because something accidentally went wrong in the scuffle or the hero was compelled in good faith to use deadly self-defense to protect themselves and society, then I personally don’t hold it against the heroes, regardless of rules or codes or whatever. I think the pursuit of justice and the variables of how anything can happen in fighting crime, whether we like it or not, and I extend this to Batman as well with the understanding of what he went through.
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Post by Batflunkie on May 22, 2020 13:44:16 GMT -5
Or in other words...Snyder really doesn't get comics I find Snyder interesting solely because he brought a "very refreshing at time" outsider's perspective to Watchmen. But no, he should have not been allowed to touch any other DC properties at all
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Post by earl on May 24, 2020 18:37:05 GMT -5
I think the point is if Batman kills, he really is no better than the psychopaths he is fighting in Gotham.
I'd think death would happen considering the world of the Batman, but for him to go out and Batman seek to destroy, I don't think so.
Now if you are telling an 'elseworlds' type story, you want to change it up...maybe. I think this is kind of the point of that Azzarello/Bermejo Batman graphic novel that came out in the past year (and I haven't read) I believe.
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Post by earl on May 24, 2020 18:38:01 GMT -5
In general, they have gotten Batman most right in the cartoons. I'd say that is about the 'iconic' version at this point.
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Post by tonebone on Sept 11, 2020 13:50:33 GMT -5
No, Batman should not kill. Heroes should be what we STRIVE to be at our best, not what we would be reduced to at our worst.
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Post by brianf on Sept 11, 2020 14:04:41 GMT -5
I try to not be a purist about things like this. I guess, sure, as a regular thing BM is more interesting finding other ways than killing as a solution. But if a good story can be made out of killing as a plot point, why not? Just entertain me with your stories
And I personally find Batman killing in the movies to be unnecessary - the film makers are just being lazy, using generic action movie shots. In BMvSM I think it would have been more interesting to see BM succeed in that car chase using nonlethal methods instead of just blowing up and shooting people. But that would take, you know, work.
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Post by earl on Sept 11, 2020 16:19:52 GMT -5
Batman did kill and use a gun in some of the early stories, so I think one set in that era, it might make sense. DC has put out boodles of Batman comics, but I think the one thing they have not really done in any way that with the right people doing the comic would be to make a Batman series and make it to actual tech (no super powers etc.)
That would be a good place to show and answer the question.
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Post by zaku on Sept 13, 2020 7:20:02 GMT -5
By the way, the Batman of Earth-2 canonically had regularly used a gun (before seeing the errors in his way)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2020 8:01:34 GMT -5
IF this was real life and people like Batman and the Joker existed? YES!!!
But in serial fiction? No.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2020 8:07:05 GMT -5
IF this was real life and people like Batman and the Joker existed? YES!!! But in serial fiction? No. This! A thousand times over. Can I “Like” this post twice?! I’ve tried to articulate this, myself. I feel, and we can all be guilty of this, that we can conflate real life and comics at times. I remember asking questions about the fuel bill for Thunderbirds, but then had to remind myself that you don’t question where fictional vehicles’ fuel comes from. I reminded myself that I had to simply accept that the Thunderbirds crafts had fuel for their missions. That’s all I needed to know. In serial fiction, I’d follow Michael’s advice.
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