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Post by rberman on Mar 26, 2019 10:58:56 GMT -5
This came from the discussion about Watchmen in another thread: What really pisses me off is how ubiquitous it is. A group I meet up with wanted to do a graphic novel rather than a novel. Everyone wanted to do Watchmen (other than myself and one other person) because, hey, it's the only graphic novel/trade in existence, right?  And it happened again recently. Another reading group I attend wishes to do a graphic novel. It was my suggestion. Before I could even speak, one of the vocal members of the group said, "Shall we do Watchmen?" I could not help but reply, "That's a cliché choice, let's try something else." I threw around other ideas: A New Jerusalem, Pride, Batman Noel, etc. These are *just* two recent examples. I have tried to get reading groups to do graphic novels before. And, predictably and boringly, some will always suggest Watchmen or V For Vendetta. What a crying shame those two stories are the only ones ever created, eh?  This raising an interesting question. I can understand why lay people would hear that Watchmen is an important work and choose to make it the first graphic novel (and perhaps the first comic book) that they read. I can also understand why such people would walk away saying, "That was OK, but not as great as I heard." Watchmen is not intro level comic book reading. It wasn't intended to be. It assumes familiarity with many topics both inside and outside comic books, and much of its value comes from implicit interactions with those sources. Apart from that, it's a fun adventure story that could be made into an action movie with a few fight scenes. (Someone should try that!) So... if you had someone who liked reading (important!), and who liked superhero/sci-fi/action media, and he asked you, "I thought I might try reading a graphic novel. You like those, don't you? Which one would you recommend to start with?" what would you say? Let's leave aside the discussion that most people who like superhero movies have no interest in reading a comic book at all. That's a given. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 26, 2019 11:07:15 GMT -5
As someone that missed the context of a lot of the "adult" comics in the 70's and 80's I would actually point people to Morrison's Animal Man or We3 and perhaps Starman (though I have still yet to finish reading it) as something that might introduce someone to something more than the standard superhero comics.
Death of Captain Marvel is also great, but I feel like it wouldn't be a good introduction since there's so much story behind it that I don't think the GN itself touches all points on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 11:13:01 GMT -5
I'd recommend Pride, a story told from the perspective of a pride of lions after the Iraq War (2003) kicks off and Baghdad Zoo is bombed.
It isn't a predictable choice. It doesn't involve superheroes (there can be a stigma when you try and get folk interested in superheroes). It's an accessible story - and I'd wager many people like animals. So I'd explain the premise to a newbie and say, "It's a complete story, it's visual in nature because that's what graphic novels are about, and it tells a lovely and heartwarming tale from beginning to end."
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,333
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Post by shaxper on Mar 26, 2019 11:16:43 GMT -5
Most of the graphic novels I recommend are not about superheroes and are not given to fans of superheroes. Last year, I got someone reading Corto Maltese and God's Man. This year, I've got my girlfriend reading Sandman with absolute glee.
I generally find I have no common ground with fans of the recent superhero films. They don't appreciate the complexity and artistry that drives me to read comics. All they care about is who is more powerful and whether Marvel or DC is better. It's trite, and my graphic novel collection runs headlong in the opposite direction of trite.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 11:24:48 GMT -5
surprised it wasn't mentioned in the same breath as "V for Vendetta" or "Watchmen". . but my go to for Graphic Novel when someone who's not a comic reader per se, asks me? Mausand they always come back talking about how much they loved it and asking me for another recommendation (and I point them to the "Strangers in Paradise" collections)  |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 26, 2019 11:38:02 GMT -5
It depends on what the individual is interested in. Are they crime or noir fans? Then maybe Criminal or The Fade Out by Brubaker and Phillips. Are they interested in war? Any number of war books by Ennis (the Night Witches for example). Are they SF fans? Have them try Saga or for a shorter work Orbiter. Westerns...Desparadoes is pretty okay. Any of the Palmiotti/Grey Jonah Hex trades are good and mostly one-and-dones.
There simply isn't a one-size-fits-all answer. Tailoring your answer to the individual makes it more likely they'll want to read more and maybe branch out.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 26, 2019 11:51:03 GMT -5
I would opt for V for Vendetta over Watchman. Watchmen needs the foundation and knowledge of the Superhero world to fully be appreciated.
That's if it's a superhero type GN you want to give them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 11:59:19 GMT -5
I would opt for V for Vendetta over Watchman. Watchmen needs the foundation and knowledge of the Superhero world to fully be appreciated. That's if it's a superhero type GN you want to give them. The thing is, the book clubs I've been a part of have discussed reading a graphic novel. Not a superhero graphic novel, but a graphic novel. It's disappointing that there is often one there who throws V For Vendetta or Watchmen into the discussion. Such people are tedious (sorry, but it bores me after a while) because they can't see past those two stories. It'd be like being a member of film clubs and someone constantly saying, "When are we watching Lord of the Rings or Citizen Kane?" And I get so bored when tabloids come up with a list of, say, 10, 20 or 100 novels to read. You'd expect the classics on there (such as Frankenstein), but have they ever thought, just once, about THINKING OUTSIDE THE DAMN BOX and recommending something? Someone asked me for a book recommendation recently. I could have recommended a classic novel. But I recommended The Toymakers by Robert Dinsdale. It might not make any list, but I feel it's a good story. I know I sound angry, and this is a bugbear for me. It's just when you are discussing graphic novels during book club meetings, I wish some people would SHUT UP about Watchmen and V For Vendetta. Yes, they are good stories. But why, oh why, do some at such meetings have to be so predictable? Why do they think we ALWAYS want to discuss or read those graphic novels? Aren't there other trades/graphic novels in existence? Again, I know I sound angry, but at one club, when us "outside the box" folk were trying to come to a consensus on a graphic novel to read, the vocal one (who talks at the rate of a million words a minute) was all, "What about Watchmen?" GO AWAY, Mr Predictable. Seriously! |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 26, 2019 12:05:48 GMT -5
I think I remember reading Alan Moore saying that he was disappointed that no one has created something to surpass Watchmen , instead of copying the type of story.
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Post by rberman on Mar 26, 2019 12:07:20 GMT -5
I would opt for V for Vendetta over Watchman. Watchmen needs the foundation and knowledge of the Superhero world to fully be appreciated. That's if it's a superhero type GN you want to give them. The thing is, the book clubs I've been a part of have discussed reading a graphic novel. Not a superhero graphic novel, but a graphic novel. It's disappointing that there is often one there who throws V For Vendetta or Watchmen into the discussion. Such people are tedious (sorry, but it bores me after a while) because they can't see past those two stories. It'd be like being a member of film clubs and someone constantly saying, "When are we watching Lord of the Rings or Citizen Kane?" And I get so bored when tabloids come up with a list of, say, 10, 20 or 100 novels to read. You'd expect the classics on there (such as Frankenstein), but have they ever thought, just once, about THINKING OUTSIDE THE DAMN BOX and recommending something? Someone asked me for a book recommendation recently. I could have recommended a classic novel. But I recommended The Toymakers by Robert Dinsdale. It might not make any list, but I feel it's a good story. I know I sound angry, and this is a bugbear for me. It's just when you are discussing graphic novels during book club meetings, I wish some people would SHUT UP about Watchmen and V For Vendetta. Yes, they are good stories. But why, oh why, do some at such meetings have to be so predictable? Why do they think we ALWAYS want to discuss or read those graphic novels? Aren't there other trades/graphic novels in existence? Again, I know I sound angry, but at one club, when us "outside the box" folk were trying to come to a consensus on a graphic novel to read, the vocal one (who talks at the rate of a million words a minute) was all, "What about Watchmen?" GO AWAY, Mr Predictable. Seriously! This calls to mind the scene in Election in which the Civics teacher goes slowly insane from having to teach the three branches of government over and over again every year. The fault doesn't lie in the material, or in him. It's just human nature to crave something new. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2019 12:15:37 GMT -5
I was a bookseller for 20 years; you have to tailor things to the reader. If they are curious about superheroes; but want something a bit more akin to movies and tv, I would recommend Batman: Year One. If they wanted something sophisticated I would go with the Sandman series. If they wanted something like classic literature, I would recommend Corto Maltese. if they wanted something personal, then Maus, Persepolis, or Howard Cruse's Stuck Rubber Baby. If they enjoy fantasy and want something for a child, then Bone.
During my bookseller days, our top selling graphic novels and trades were Maus, Persepolis, Smile, Bone, Dark Knight, Batman Year One, Long Halloween, Sandman, Walking Dead, Watchmen, and V For Vendetta (more during the Occupy era). Maus and Persepolis are taught in schools and are part of summer reading lists. Bone hit a goldmine when Scholastic put it out in color book collections, doing a better job of getting it into kids' hands tan comic shops (though many buyers in the shops were sharing it with their kids). The Batman films drove sales of the Batman books and DC kept them in print and marketed them whenever a film was out. Watchmen was a steady seller; but, the film greatly boosted its profile into bestseller. Same for V for Vendetta, though the news stories of the Occupy Movement sold more copies than the film did. The Walking Dead tv show drives its sales.
Sandman was a bit of a bookstore phenomena. The trade collections coincided with Gaiman's increased prose output; and, as his literary star rose, people were curious about his omic work. Various trades of OGNs would come and go; but, we always stocked the Sandman volumes.
Marvel has never been strong in this area. For one thing, they let their trades go out of print within 6 months to a year, in many cases. two, they geared things and marketed them to comic shops, rather than a mass audience. DC was way better at marketing in book stores. The Marvel movies generated a ton of merchandise; but, I didn't see a massive buying of their books, before I left B&N. They might rush out a colelction of Iron Man or Avengers trades; but, they did F-all to market them to people. We had more people buying Avengers POP figures than books.
The Death of Captain Marvel is a great one to recommend for someone who has faced or is facing the loss of a loved one. Leaving aside the superhero angle, it follows through the stages of grieving very well and is Starlin's best writing. There are really poignant moments in it, to which people can relate, even if they don't walk around in bright spandex costumes.
Alan Moore's ABC books are great ones for people curious about superheroes or adventurers; but, are looking for something that reflects what they know of movies and tv. Tom Strong is fun, classic adventure, with humor and excitement and great characters. Top Ten is a police procedural and hits the same vibes as NYPD Blue or Hill Street Blues. Tomorrow Stories are satirical fun and Promethea is an interesting take on a Wonder Woman-type heroine. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is great for anyone who loves literature and pop culture, as it is filled with easter eggs and allusions that will send people to the library.
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Post by MDG on Mar 26, 2019 12:15:43 GMT -5
These are collections rather than "novels," but I'd recommend Spain's My True Story or Cruisin' with the Hound, as well as a collection of Harvey Pekar. For people a little more "out there," something by Kim Deitch. Last week I read Nobody's Fool by Bill Griffith. That and his Invisible Ink are both very well done.
EDIT: for younger readers (not too young) something by Richard Sala,
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2019 12:18:03 GMT -5
Book clubs are notorious for going for the same cliched choices; which is why few of them last very long. We had groups meet at B&N and most fizzled out after 6 months or so; except our mystery group. They were always craving something new, though they usually chose the the same of thing, in someone else's writing style.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 12:29:01 GMT -5
Book clubs are notorious for going for the same cliched choices; which is why few of them last very long. We had groups meet at B&N and most fizzled out after 6 months or so; except our mystery group. They were always craving something new, though they usually chose the the same of thing, in someone else's writing style. I was a member of one recently. All the cliched choices were there: Charles Dickens novels, Agatha Christie novels, etc. They can be good. A Tale of Two Cities is a really profound book. But it'd be nice to join one where authors of lesser renown were covered. Anyone want to form one with me?  |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Mar 26, 2019 13:42:23 GMT -5
This came from the discussion about Watchmen in another thread: Watchmen is not intro level comic book reading. It wasn't intended to be. It assumes familiarity with many topics both inside and outside comic books, and much of its value comes from implicit interactions with those sources. Apart from that, it's a fun adventure story that could be made into an action movie with a few fight scenes. (Someone should try that!)
Establishing myself as no slavish fan of Watchmen (I am not blind to its flaws and despite detesting the movie I preferred the 'He's watching you!' ending to that stupid squid), but I disagree. It was nominated for an Edgar award, presumably not just by comic fans! I think people who grew up with the Batman tv series and the Superman films clearly recognise the tropes being called on with Nite-Owl and Dr Manhattan. Heck, my father in law liked the book and he's no comics fan at all.
But I also agree that there are better resources for non-fans to dip into ... before my website went defunct I had a whole page devoted to 'Comics for Grownups' chock full of nonsuperhero books (although I included some superheroes) ... and this was a decade ago! There are innumerably more now.
Of course a lot depends on the tastes of the readers involved, but if someone was particularly into superhero media, Watchmen and V are not bad places to start.
For the record, my wife's favorite comics when I first got her started were Sandman Mystery Theatre and Omaha the Cat Dancer.
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