|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 21:04:21 GMT -5
Prefatory note: I am not sure if this belongs in modern comics, classic comics, community or what, so I put it here...if someone feels it belongs elsewhere, feel free to move it. So I was searching for something and ran across a couple of quotes by Scoot McCloud which got me thinking about how we view the big2 and mainstream comics... so my question is are mainstream comics really mainstream? Are the big2 serving the mainstream or a small remnant of what was left behind when mainstream audiences left comics to find their entertainment elsewhere. The current success of super-hero movies and television show super-heroes can have mainstream appeal. The presence of stuff using the comic form (i.e. sequential art to tell stories) on best seller lists show the comic format has relevance to a true mainstream audience* But very little of what is actually selling to mainstream audiences is what the industry labels as mainstream comics. If the big 2 define what is mainstream in comics but the mainstream is actually buying and reading comics that are outside what the industry considers mainstream, should that actually be considered mainstream comics? Is McCloud correct that the mainstream audience left the big 2 behind long ago and are deluding themselves by catering to the tiny fragment that remained behind? Should we start redefining what we label as mainstream comics and find a more accurate label for what the big 2 are producing, one that actually reflects their place in the mainstream pop culture community/audience? If the content is relevant to a mainstream audience-as success in other media of super-hero stories shows, and the sequential art format used to tell stories is still relevant because it still sells to the mainstream in some form, why are big 2 super-hero comics (usingthat content and that format) largely irrelevant to a true mainstream audience? Where is the disconnect? Has the insular nature of what is championed by those left behind to buy big 2 super-hero comics made them incomprehensible to mainstream audiences. The movies don't have those accessibility issues and are comprehensible to mainstream audiences who were, in many cases largely unfamiliar with the backstory/history/legacy of the characters that so many point to as the pinnacle of what comics have to offer. Yet those same audiences do not flock tot he source material and many who do find it incomprehensible-again not the content/characters/stories or the format of sequential art because those do well in the mainstream, but the precise formula used by the big 2 to produce super-hero stories in the comic format remains a wasteland to the mainstream. Is the problem that the industry itself has left the mainstream behind? Has it forgotten the lessons of accessibility in Stan's mantra every issue is someone's first to cater to a tiny audience that takes all that for granted and expects the "mainstream" to actually cater to the smallest of niches? What is the divide that keeps the success of the content and the format of super-heroes and comics that succeed in the mainstream from succeeding in that venue when mixed in the particular alchemy that is big 2 super-hero comics? Because it really has become a case where the sum of the two has become lesser than the constituent parts. We all scoff and say, oh the movies don't bring fans to comics because people don't read comics or don't enjoy super-heroes and take for granted this is true and the way it must be. But people do read comics, and do enjoy super-heroes, so why don't they enjoy big 2 super-hero comics? Or should we just be honest and accept big 2 super-hero comics are not mainstream at all and only pretend at that position within the overall market for sequential art and super-hero stories? Just thinking out loud. We all know the usual round of arguments, but the reality that super-heroes sell and comics sell reveals the lie of a lot of those rationalizations why super-hero comics won' sell. Does the future of super-heroes lie outside of comics and the future of comics lie outside super-heroes? And if so, is that necessarily a bad thing? -M *here are the B&N NY Times bestsellerlists for paperback graphic novels and hardcover graphic novels for the week of Jan 10, 2016 i.e. this week and for last week paperbackand hardcovers which reflects sales through Dec 19. Here also is the current list of Amazon bestsellers for comics and graphic novels |
|
|
|
Post by coke & comics on Jan 3, 2016 22:12:36 GMT -5
I think the word "mainstream" is intrinsically tied to the word "corporate". So yes, the companies owned by Time Warner and Disney are most certainly the mainstream.
They also still sell quite well.
I have always tended to think of the divide as between mainstream and independent, and that divide broken by publisher. Where you draw the line is a little subjective.
For much of my life, calling Marvel and DC mainstream and all else independent, would have been fair. But more commonly I think Image and Dark Horse were included in the mainstream. You could look at sales numbers to see if this classical division holds true.
Perhaps IDW and Boom could also be considered mainstream.
You could also cast a wider net and insist independent comics not come from a major publisher, and include First Second, Top Shelf, Fantagraphics, etc amongst the major publishers, by volume of output and sales.
Up to you where to draw the line.
Wherever you draw it, Marvel and DC are certainly on the mainstream side.
|
|
|
|
Post by coke & comics on Jan 3, 2016 22:16:31 GMT -5
Now, you ask not about what comics are mainstream, perhaps, but what the mainstream audience wants. In which case, I think you have a point, that the "mainstream audience", a term I would struggle to define, is more interested in the output of companies outside of the Big 2. I know I am. My amazon history shows a distinct inclination toward either the classical, or toward modern stuff from the non-Big 2. Image, Dark Horse, First Second, etc etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 3, 2016 22:31:26 GMT -5
I think those lists are a bit deceiving, since most people that buy superhero/big 2 comics buy them from an outlet that gets stuff from diamond, not Ingram, Baker and Taylor, or whoever those lists use. Sales at non-direct market outlets are much more heavily weighted to non-Superheroes. There's really not much way to compare... I have no idea how many sales, say, #403 on Amazon translates to in number of books (That's the rank to the top Marvel comic... Journey to Force Awakens). I know one sales gets you ranked about #300,000... not sure how fast it scales up. FYI, the top Marvel U book is Ms. Marvel Vol. 1, which was ranked about #3000.
That said, going by Ingram's stock levels (It's good to work at a book store).. they have about 4-10X more of Raina Telgeier's books in stock (around 1000 of the newest) than Ms. Marvel (like 250). Obviously, that's not sales, but Ingram is the biggest wholesale group out there. How often that turns over, I don't know.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Jan 3, 2016 22:39:05 GMT -5
That said, going by Ingram's stock levels (It's good to work at a book store).. they have about 4-10X more of Raina Telgeier's books in stock (around 1000 of the newest) than Ms. Marvel (like 250). Obviously, that's not sales, but Ingram is the biggest wholesale group out there. How often that turns over, I don't know. And since I work in retail sales/stock planning, its safe to assume that Raina Teldeier's books sell 4-10x more than Ms Marvel over a given period of time |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 3, 2016 22:44:36 GMT -5
Right... THROUGH Those sort of outlets. It's also pretty safe to assume nearly 0 Raina Teldeier books sell at comic book stores. The question is one of quantity. Is the thousand or so Ms Marvel trades sold through diamond plus what sells in book stores more or less that stuff like 'Sisters'? I don't think we can really know that, sadly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 23:41:35 GMT -5
I think those lists are a bit deceiving, since most people that buy superhero/big 2 comics buy them from an outlet that gets stuff from diamond, not Ingram, Baker and Taylor, or whoever those lists use. Sales at non-direct market outlets are much more heavily weighted to non-Superheroes. There's really not much way to compare... I have no idea how many sales, say, #403 on Amazon translates to in number of books (That's the rank to the top Marvel comic... Journey to Force Awakens). I know one sales gets you ranked about #300,000... not sure how fast it scales up. FYI, the top Marvel U book is Ms. Marvel Vol. 1, which was ranked about #3000. That said, going by Ingram's stock levels (It's good to work at a book store).. they have about 4-10X more of Raina Telgeier's books in stock (around 1000 of the newest) than Ms. Marvel (like 250). Obviously, that's not sales, but Ingram is the biggest wholesale group out there. How often that turns over, I don't know. According to Brian Hibbs when he does those year end book sale articles where he looks at what comics are selling outside of Diamond, he looks at actual numbers and for companies like DC, the evergreen books (Watchmen, Dark Knight, etc. that make the top seller lists in the book trade move several times the units in the book trade than they do through Diamond, Walking Dead does way more in the book trade than it does through Diamond as well, and remember most libraries that stock graphic novels get them outside the Diamond distribution realm as well. The Diamond market is a niche market when compared to sales in the larger book market, even for GN and tpb. And as for corporate being mainstream, in the book trade mainstream is the big 7 publishers (the Simon and Shusters and that ilk) and Disney is not one of the big 5 (not sure if the Time/Warner umbrella includes a big 7 publishing house), so by that model, Marvel and D are outside the corporate mainstream in the book publishing trade, which is where I was going with this. Taking an emic/etic point of view ( emic vs. etic), those on the inside look at big2 as mainstream, but on the outside, and the outside is much bigger than inside, the mainstream is something entirely different, and it is the big 2 on the outside looking in at what is mainstream there. The comic industry/fandom is the isolated group thinking it is mainstream in its views, but blinded to what mainstream actually is because they can't (or won't) look at the world outside their isolated niche. What the rest of the actual mainstream world sees is an inbred little community that may have some interesting stuff but at times is as scary as the Peacock family in the X-Files episode Home that lacks perspective what actually appeals to the mainstream about super-heroes and comic books. -M edit to add looks like it's a big 5 in publishing now (text corrected) after the Random House Penguin merger-Hachette, von Holtzbrink Publishing Group/MacMillan, Penguin/Random House, Harper Collins, and Simon & Shuster many of whom have their own graphic novel division (for example First Second is part of the von Holtzbrink group) and many current creators are taking creator-owned projects to these publsihers rather than traditional publsihers, like Jeff Lemire, who is taking his new OGN Roughneck to Simon & Shuster next year |
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 4, 2016 10:56:49 GMT -5
Here's how the french market market is looking like :
2015 was a good year since there was a new asterix that sold over two millions in the french language market since its release two and a half months ago (average retail price of 9.30$).
2015 saw a sligh decline in the amount of published albums (3%). We sill saw 5 255 books, of which 3924 were new original works
1 585 mangas
1 531 bédés
419 comics
388 graphic novels
The market is ten times bigger than what it was 20 years ago, but you have to include the massive manga boost and the renewed interest in comics.
88 titles had 50 000 copies initial first press for the first hand market (the second hand market is far bigger in France than the retail one)
Sales have globaly increased with 3,5% in the first 9 months of 2015, when they only increased with 2,5% in 2014, but those numbers will drastically increase with the late fall releases of Asterix, new Corto Maltese, Titeuf, Le Chat, etc...
Outside those heavyweights, the biggest successes were the ones of Riad Sattoufs "The Arab From the Future" two tomes, Paul Cauuet & Wilfrid Lupano's The Old Furnaces (the humoristic chronicles of old anti-system anarchists) third volume, a new little publishing empire by itself.
The decrease in publication ammount was a healthy one that reflected a market aware of its potential and limits. Three publishing groups (the mainstream) and their various labels amount 35,2% of the total amount of publications.
Digital sales progressed with 1% and remains at the fringes, even if the past five years saw a continuous growth. The izneo platform remains the leader with 90% of all the publications available and in print (over 14 000 titles)
Germany remains the biggest market for mangas outside of Asia.
Basically, superheroes comics in Europe remain a niche market of the youth, almost akin to hte underground.
Out of the 15 best sellers of 2015, 14 were europeans and one was US (walking dead).
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 4, 2016 13:49:02 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Disney/Time Warner publishing is owned by Hachette... they used to be their own thing (Under Time Warner Books) but they mergers with Hachette a couple years ago.
While Brian Hibbs is a good source, when they site things like 'several times' instead of actual numbers, if makes me wonder. Is 'several times' 10 instead of 3 or 2100 instead of 300? There's a pretty huge difference. I THINK bookscan gives actual numbers (which I assume i what he uses) but that's still not everything... and skews to the big chains over small stores.
All that said, I think 'more sales' doesn't mean 'mainstream'. I'm pretty sure if you show a picture of Superman to 100 random people, very close to all of them are going to know exactly who his is. Rick for the Walking Dead? Not so much.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 4, 2016 13:59:12 GMT -5
Yeah, but the question is not about cross media icons/franchises but about comics.
If we could agree on the biggest most popular superhero that has yet to cross over to movie/TV/video games, I'm not sure it would be as recognizable by the younger generation as Rick Grimes...
Hachette is the second biggest publisher of print in hte world, and they own time warner books, but not the DC branch, which has nothing to do with TWB. They also own Disney's old Hyperion branch, but only the non-fiction material I believe.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 15:28:08 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Disney/Time Warner publishing is owned by Hachette... they used to be their own thing (Under Time Warner Books) but they mergers with Hachette a couple years ago. While Brian Hibbs is a good source, when they site things like 'several times' instead of actual numbers, if makes me wonder. Is 'several times' 10 instead of 3 or 2100 instead of 300? There's a pretty huge difference. I THINK bookscan gives actual numbers (which I assume i what he uses) but that's still not everything... and skews to the big chains over small stores. All that said, I think 'more sales' doesn't mean 'mainstream'. I'm pretty sure if you show a picture of Superman to 100 random people, very close to all of them are going to know exactly who his is. Rick for the Walking Dead? Not so much. The sourc eof the vagueness was me, not Hibbs. Hibbs gave numbers I couldn't recall except that they were several times more, if I had the time to track down the article, I likely would have had an exact number for you, but the several times is my hazy memory of what Hibbs said not that what he said was vague. -M |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 15:32:09 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Disney/Time Warner publishing is owned by Hachette... they used to be their own thing (Under Time Warner Books) but they mergers with Hachette a couple years ago. While Brian Hibbs is a good source, when they site things like 'several times' instead of actual numbers, if makes me wonder. Is 'several times' 10 instead of 3 or 2100 instead of 300? There's a pretty huge difference. I THINK bookscan gives actual numbers (which I assume i what he uses) but that's still not everything... and skews to the big chains over small stores. All that said, I think 'more sales' doesn't mean 'mainstream'. I'm pretty sure if you show a picture of Superman to 100 random people, very close to all of them are going to know exactly who his is. Rick for the Walking Dead? Not so much. But my point isn't that Superman isn't mainstream, it's that Superman comic books are not a mainstream product. Sales doesn't mean mainstream except we are a commercial society, they may recognize Superman more, but more people are buying Rick Grimes, which makes Walking Dead a more mainstream product currently than the Superman comic currently published by DC, Action Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, etc. And that's my point, if Superman is so mainstream and comic books sell to a mainstream audience, why don't Superman comics as published by DC today sell to a mainstream audience? -M |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 4, 2016 17:08:43 GMT -5
Ahh, Ok. I think I agree that comic books in general are not a mainstream product. I think we were talking about different things.
After all, if they were, they'd still be on newsstands. I don't think you can argue that any product that you have to go to a specialized outlet for is mainstream. I guess I think comics in general aren't mainstream anymore. They're really more Geek Chic right now.
What I don't know (and perhaps that article has this...I remember it, but not the details... or we could find it somewhere) is what % of the book market trade sales are... if it's a big slice, you could probably say there is a mainstream... but by that measure I'm sure Walking Dead is the Mainstream... especially if you consider all the different formats and volumes.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 4, 2016 17:10:38 GMT -5
1 585 mangas 1 531 bédés 419 comics 388 graphic novels By 419 comics, do you mean that's how many series are ongoing, or that many single comics. If the latter, that's a tiny number compared to the US market! I knew manga was bigger than superheroes over there, didn't realize it was that different... very interesting. Also, what the heck is a Bedes? |
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 4, 2016 17:31:12 GMT -5
1 585 mangas 1 531 bédés 419 comics 388 graphic novels By 419 comics, do you mean that's how many series are ongoing, or that many single comics. If the latter, that's a tiny number compared to the US market! I knew manga was bigger than superheroes over there, didn't realize it was that different... very interesting. Also, what the heck is a Bedes? we don't have thin floppies here, most big two comics are sold thematically, with 4 issues content or more, or trades, or GN. For exemple, "Batman Saga" will have Batman, Detective, Batgirl, Grayson and Batman and Robin. But depending on the curent crossover/event, they could skip a month or two for a series and then have double or triple dose of one series, or include an annual... I remember Hush got published as double issues, but that was a long time ago, and now that model doesn't exist anymore. Bédés is phonetic for BD which is an acronym for Bandes Dessinées, which means "drawn sequence/bunch" which is how we call comics in France. When we say "a BD" it usually means a european HC album (that you americans call oversized - A4 = 22x 30 cm) of 42 to 48 pages with no editorial or bonus material, the most common format for comics over here. |
|
