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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 6:36:02 GMT -5
Hey @taxidriver1980 , I get that you didn't like the way the person in the show said it, but DK did change things. Maybe for the worst. It did. But that wasn't what he was saying. He was sharing a viewpoint as if it was a definitive fact based on his own perception. Yes, if someone finished watching the Adam West series, and then only watched it in reruns until TDKR, then one could believe they thought the character was a joke. But it's about individuals for me. The person religiously reading stories by the likes of Len Wein and Denny O'Neil from the 70s onwards would certainly not have thought Batman was a joke. And their perception is as valid as anyone's. I just wish the documentary speaker had mentioned perceptions or expressed it as a view. I was not a fan of the definitive, "Batman was a joke until The Dark Knight Returns." Yes, in HIS opinion and based on HIS perceptions which differ from others. And that's the way it is with anything. If the only Bond film a person had ever seen was Octopussy, and he'd chosen to base his beliefs on Bond based on that one film, he may well go and tell others, "I watched one Bond film. It was a joke. No more." But if another person had then watched movies such as The Living Daylights and Skyfall, or one of the really dark Connery movies, his perceptions would differ.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 27, 2019 10:40:38 GMT -5
But Batman wasn't just in the comics, he was a joke in Super Friends, he was a joke in Scooby Doo, and he was especially a joke in the New Adventures of Batman (even voiced by Adam West again), (...) No, he wasn't. In both the Super Friends and the Filmation cartoon, which I watched religiously as a kid, Batman and Robin were treated quite seriously. You can say that neither of those cartoons were very good, but the heroes in them were played straight. Even with Adam West and Burt Ward doing the voice-acting, the tone of the Filmation cartoon was far more serious than the 1960s TV show. The only comic relief was provided by Bat-mite. Otherwise, as codystarbuck basically noted, the impact of DKR was only felt inside the circle of comics readers. It had virtually no impact on the broader public's perceptions of Batman, which were still stuck in the Bam! Pow! Socko! impressions created by the '60s TV show until Burton's movie came out - and not even that erased it entirely.
I have to disagree about the cartoons; from their start in 1973, the Super Friends' version of Batman and Robin were not at all serious; Batman had been turned into a glorified summer camp counselor, both in the endless preaching of that week's message (ecology was the running tie to all problems in that debut season), to the Batmobile--largely based on the Barris custom from the 1966-68 TV series--turned from a two-seater car to one with a backseat to accommodate the made-for-TV (and terrible) teen sidekicks, Marvin, Wendy and Wonder-Dog. Essentially it was a comfy Bat-station wagon. Adding to that, the Super Friends Batman and Robin always had a chuckle or flat-out laughing fit at the customary comic relief at the end of each episode. Its no wonder the original Super Friends was cancelled after one season's worth of episodes was produced. Even as it was reformatted (slightly) years later for 1977's The All-New Super-Friends Hour, Batman and Robin were still lightweights compared to the 1968-70 Filmation version ( The Batman-Superman Hour / Batman with Robin the Boy Wonder) and certainly the direction-changing comics that had been published since the Novick/Robbins era of the late 60s, and obviously the run of O'Neil and Adams, and beyond. I was one of those Batman fans of that period, who was young enough to watch cartoons, but a dedicated comic collector, and all TV versions of Batman from the 70s-80s were just awful junk. Eventually, Filmation's return to Batman in 1977 fell into the same comedy pile, where Bat-Mite was not some isolated comic relief, but often, Batman and Robin would laugh at his antics, or--in typical sitcom fashion--deliver a groaning "Ohh no!" when Bat-Mite caused trouble. Few ever took that kind of material seriously. Regarding public perception, in the 70s & 80s, the intended image of Batman was featured on a wealth of merchandising of the period, almost always featuring licensing art from Adams (or provided by his Continuity Studios stable) or the mid-60s work of Infantino/Anderson. To the average person--parents buying merchandise for their kids, or teens and children buying (if they could afford it) or just being in the world to see it, the real, comic version of Batman was a part of the cultural awareness landscape of retail. It was seen everywhere by people who were never exposed to those cartoons.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 11:08:00 GMT -5
But Batman wasn't just in the comics, he was a joke in Super Friends, he was a joke in Scooby Doo, and he was especially a joke in the New Adventures of Batman (even voiced by Adam West again), (...) No, he wasn't. In both the Super Friends and the Filmation cartoon, which I watched religiously as a kid, Batman and Robin were treated quite seriously. You can say that neither of those cartoons were very good, but the heroes in them were played straight. Even with Adam West and Burt Ward doing the voice-acting, the tone of the Filmation cartoon was far more serious than the 1960s TV show. The only comic relief was provided by Bat-mite. Otherwise, as codystarbuck basically noted, the impact of DKR was only felt inside the circle of comics readers. It had virtually no impact on the broader public's perceptions of Batman, which were still stuck in the Bam! Pow! Socko! impressions created by the '60s TV show until Burton's movie came out - and not even that erased it entirely.
I currently have the complete series out form the library and am slowly watching my way through. Sure Batman is the straight man, but it's still played for comedy. And even though Abbott is the straight man in Abbott and Costello, and Martin the straight man in Martin and Lewis, it doesn't mean people took them seriously, just that they were part of the joke to make it work. -M as a post script-I remember watching it as a kid too when it came out and while I took it quite seriously as an adventure cartoon, every adult in the room was laughing at the jokes.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 27, 2019 14:13:38 GMT -5
Double post.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 27, 2019 20:54:38 GMT -5
How many characters in comics are major special effects wizards when it comes to them making latex/rubber masks and impersonating someone? I've seen Batman, Black Widow and others pulls this trick and I never believe they could do a Lon Chaney Sr. like that with people who know them or even anyone who got up close. Perhaps one of the dumbest examples is when the Beast turned blue/grey and furry and then whipped up a mask of his own former human face to wear... what a great artist! He even had to make hands to go with it, and his girlfriend never noticed? Or how about if they impersonate someone quite well known, talk about the scrutiny... like JFK could covering for Superman, you'd think someone might ask Supes if his back was stiff or something. Even as a little kid I hated the rubber mask escape gimmick in any kind of comic. It's really silly in a Black Widow where she plays an old dumpy short woman who then has a stroke and later flat-lines... what, the mask reflects the stroke? Ridiculous. After narrating a comic for almost three entire issues, once the detective she's doing the act and all for leaves (because the 'old lady' has died) she rips the rubber stuff off and out pops a curvy leggy Natasha. And some of the characters she was narrating about never even existed either. Surprise? No, a couple surprises too many.
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 27, 2019 21:13:18 GMT -5
Suspension of disbelief , I guess. It worked better when they had some kind of tech to change appearances.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 22:26:54 GMT -5
How many characters in comics are major special effects wizards when it comes to them making latex/rubber masks and impersonating someone? The worst was when Batman would pull off the rubber mask and he was in his cowl under the mask😰
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 28, 2019 14:22:21 GMT -5
Suspension of disbelief , I guess. It worked better when they had some kind of tech to change appearances. The X-Men had the image-inducer gizmo for Nightcrawler and later others... I didn't like that much better either. I wouldn't like it being used as an escape from a corner the writer backed into story-wise. I hated when they dressed Kitty Pryde up as Dark Phoenix once to scare aliens... that probably must've been the image-inducer they just happened to bring along into outer space? Or did someone pack a Dark Phoenix costume and wig just in case (and even though she'd died less than a couple years earlier our time, who knows how recent in 'Marvel time'). The worst was when Batman would pull off the rubber mask and he was in his cowl under the mask😰 I think I remember that one. Ouch! I could actually accept Batman being a master of disguises, it does fit in with his (well, pre-'Year One' and that gigantic Bat god and whatever that whole new origin was doing) established approach. The Shadow did it before him as well. Unfortunately when they make everyone from Jimmy Olsen to Hank McCoy brilliant lifelike mask makers it devalues it as a skill (Chameleon should file a protest?) and plot spinner. Yeah, as an EIC I would have a memo to writers; think three times before employing rubber masks or disguises generally.
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Post by rberman on Dec 28, 2019 14:38:16 GMT -5
Suspension of disbelief , I guess. It worked better when they had some kind of tech to change appearances. The X-Men had the image-inducer gizmo for Nightcrawler and later others... I didn't like that much better either. I wouldn't like it being used as an escape from a corner the writer backed into story-wise. I hated when they dressed Kitty Pryde up as Dark Phoenix once to scare aliens... that probably must've been the image-inducer they just happened to bring along into outer space? Or did someone pack a Dark Phoenix costume and wig just in case (and even though she'd died less than a couple years earlier our time, who knows how recent in 'Marvel time'). Kitty was fooling around with a Shi'ar clothing fabricator in issue #155 and used it to create a space suit and a Phoenix cosplay in issue #157.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 14:49:09 GMT -5
How many characters in comics are major special effects wizards when it comes to them making latex/rubber masks and impersonating someone? I've seen Batman, Black Widow and others pulls this trick and I never believe they could do a Lon Chaney Sr. like that with people who know them or even anyone who got up close. Perhaps one of the dumbest examples is when the Beast turned blue/grey and furry and then whipped up a mask of his own former human face to wear... what a great artist! He even had to make hands to go with it, and his girlfriend never noticed? Or how about if they impersonate someone quite well known, talk about the scrutiny... like JFK could covering for Superman, you'd think someone might ask Supes if his back was stiff or something. Even as a little kid I hated the rubber mask escape gimmick in any kind of comic. It's really silly in a Black Widow where she plays an old dumpy short woman who then has a stroke and later flat-lines... what, the mask reflects the stroke? Ridiculous. After narrating a comic for almost three entire issues, once the detective she's doing the act and all for leaves (because the 'old lady' has died) she rips the rubber stuff off and out pops a curvy leggy Natasha. And some of the characters she was narrating about never even existed either. Surprise? No, a couple surprises too many. Great post! Reminds me of Rollin Hand (Martin Landau) in Mission: Impossible. The team's disguise artist, he can become anyone even when their faces are shaped differently. Or when their height is different. He disguised himself as IMF team leader Dan Briggs (Steven Hill) in one episode. Landau is probably 6 foot or more; Hill is probably under that and with broader shoulders. Yet Rollin could become him. And didn't Doctor Doom sneak into the Baxter Building dressed as a caretaker once? Not sure how he got the boiler suit and rubber mask over his armour. Must have been uncomfortable. I know we suspend disbelief when we read comics. It's why we always wonder why the bank robber happens to hit the bank where Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne are depositing a cheque. But even within suspension of disbelief, there has to be a certain logic. I mean, I choose to ignore some things - just how and where does Bruce Wayne get the fuel for his Bat-Plane without arousing suspicion? - but you accept it. With rubber masks, though, it seems that a) they always fit over masks, and b) a person with a long face can put on a mask and it'll somehow change the shape of his face too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 14:53:12 GMT -5
How many characters in comics are major special effects wizards when it comes to them making latex/rubber masks and impersonating someone? I've seen Batman, Black Widow and others pulls this trick and I never believe they could do a Lon Chaney Sr. like that with people who know them or even anyone who got up close. Perhaps one of the dumbest examples is when the Beast turned blue/grey and furry and then whipped up a mask of his own former human face to wear... what a great artist! He even had to make hands to go with it, and his girlfriend never noticed? Or how about if they impersonate someone quite well known, talk about the scrutiny... like JFK could covering for Superman, you'd think someone might ask Supes if his back was stiff or something. Even as a little kid I hated the rubber mask escape gimmick in any kind of comic. It's really silly in a Black Widow where she plays an old dumpy short woman who then has a stroke and later flat-lines... what, the mask reflects the stroke? Ridiculous. After narrating a comic for almost three entire issues, once the detective she's doing the act and all for leaves (because the 'old lady' has died) she rips the rubber stuff off and out pops a curvy leggy Natasha. And some of the characters she was narrating about never even existed either. Surprise? No, a couple surprises too many. Great post! Reminds me of Rollin Hand (Martin Landau) in Mission: Impossible. The team's disguise artist, he can become anyone even when their faces are shaped differently. Or when their height is different. He disguised himself as IMF team leader Dan Briggs (Steven Hill) in one episode. Landau is probably 6 foot or more; Hill is probably under that and with broader shoulders. Yet Rollin could become him. And didn't Doctor Doom sneak into the Baxter Building dressed as a caretaker once? Not sure how he got the boiler suit and rubber mask over his armour. Must have been uncomfortable. I know we suspend disbelief when we read comics. It's why we always wonder why the bank robber happens to hit the bank where Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne are depositing a cheque. But even within suspension of disbelief, there has to be a certain logic. I mean, I choose to ignore some things - just how and where does Bruce Wayne get the fuel for his Bat-Plane without arousing suspicion? - but you accept it. With rubber masks, though, it seems that a) they always fit over masks, and b) a person with a long face can put on a mask and it'll somehow change the shape of his face too. It's all unstable molecules. Reed Richard fortune came from selling patents, and one of the most profitable was when he sold unstable molecules the to costume manufacturers... -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 28, 2019 14:55:55 GMT -5
I never minded the image inducers... while the tech to do so is clearly WAY more advanced that we have even now, that was easier to believe than everyone in the DCU being a master of disguise.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 28, 2019 14:57:00 GMT -5
Kitty was fooling around with a Shi'ar clothing fabricator in issue #155 and used it to create a space suit and a Phoenix cosplay in issue #157. I've kind of blocked out that era of X-Men following #152. I really wanted to love the return of Dave Cockrum but there was too much attempted humor that fell flat for me if it didn't simply undermine the drama, like putting on the costume of a dead member at all, and there ^ she's done it entirely frivolously! They also brought Mastermind back who Phoenix seemed to have severely punished, but he's back quickly doing the exact same thing with another red-head. Oh yeah, I forgot Kitty was also a tech wiz suddenly alongside budding ninja and all around genius level IQ (but at least she didn't have some dialect speech, that area was already crowded enough before Rogue and Gambit). Oops, I said it again... on Claremont's starting to pass his sell-by date circa the early '80s.
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Post by rberman on Dec 28, 2019 15:08:22 GMT -5
Kitty was fooling around with a Shi'ar clothing fabricator in issue #155 and used it to create a space suit and a Phoenix cosplay in issue #157. I've kind of blocked out that era of X-Men following #152. I really wanted to love the return of Dave Cockrum but there was too much attempted humor that fell flat for me if it didn't simply undermine the drama, like putting on the costume of a dead member at all, and there ^ she's done it entirely frivolously! They also brought Mastermind back who Phoenix seemed to have severely punished, but he's back quickly doing the exact same thing with another red-head. Oh yeah, I forgot Kitty was also a tech wiz suddenly alongside budding ninja and all around genius level IQ (but at least she didn't have some dialect speech, that area was already crowded enough before Rogue and Gambit). Oops, I said it again... on Claremont's starting to pass his sell-by date circa the early '80s. That was when I was just getting started, and I have fond memories through the mid-80s. #149 was my first issue, and as a tween myself I thought Kitty was way cool. I heard issue #137 was great, so I saved up an unthinkable $7 to order a copy from Mile High Comics from the centerfold ad. I hadn't seen the movie Alien but thought the Brood were creepy cool, and then Paul Smith's art was terrific, and this new guy John Romita, Jr. after him was not so great, but wow Barry Windsor-Smith, and those girls in New Mutants always in bikinis for some reason, and then there was Bill Sienkiewicz and then Art Adams, and... and... Then I got a CD player Christmas 1986, and that was the end of comic books.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 28, 2019 15:13:00 GMT -5
After the first post I just happened to read in Thunderbolts how the assassin Scourge is shown to really be Captain America under his mask (with Cap's mask including the little wings), then Cap's mask is removed to show Hawkeye he's really Steve Rogers, and then the Steve Rogers visage is really a tech gizmo's creation which when broken reveals Nomad/Jack Munroe! I don't think even Scooby-Doo had that many unmaskings in one story. It was fairly logical though. I remember a Cutey Bunny where they rip the mask off someone and it's old Adolph Shickelgruber himself under there... but then Captain Huey goes one further and thinking that's a disguise pulls his skin off leaving a skull! "D'uh, chee."
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