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Post by zaku on Sept 11, 2019 3:04:09 GMT -5
The example that springs immediately to mind is "The Death of Superman" arc where Superman succumbs to physical wounds inflicted on him by Doomsday. Yep, but I was asking about the Pre-Crisis period
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Sept 11, 2019 3:33:35 GMT -5
Excuse me for the a bit morbid question but... In the pre-crisis period, had we ever an instance where a under-the-sun-full-powered Kryptonian was killed by brute force? The question arises from a discussion on another forum, where it was said that Pre-Crisis Superman was literally invulnerable to physical harm. Superman himself said something like that in a story. So, I think that in theory a full-powered Kryptonian could kill another one, but I don't recall any story where something similar happened. So, it could be that Pre-Crisis Superman under a yellow sun (or any other Kryptonian) was literally impossibile to kill by physical means? It's nice to know that the Rumbles board is still around. I started on the Rumbles board. So Pre-Crisis Superman covers damn near 50 years and a variety of power levels. (I'd tentatively argue that there were 4-5 different interpretations of Pre-Crisis Superman that weren't quite the same character.) The original Simon and Schuster Superman and the early '70s Julie Schwartz revamp were tough but not invulnerable. The other thing is that the idea of Superman being physically hurt was irrelevant for a lot of his history. The post-Code DC comics tried mightily to de-emphasize physical violence, and most of the SA Supes' conflict was emotional. Or Kryptonite-based. But it sure seems like the DC Comics Presents panel that you posted contradicts the "Superman is invulnerable" theory. The weapons on Mongul's Warworld were certainly enough to hurt Superman Hell, the destruction of Warwold was enough to kill Supergirl. Kinda. Sorta. And if you want pure physical damage it sure seemed like Mongul was hurting him when they fought mano-y-mano in For the Man Who Has Everything. (Superman won, though. My take is that they were equally strong and equally tough, but Mongul didn't have a counter for heat vision.) I'll give Alan Moore a pass, but mostly if you're writing the pre-Crisis Superman doing a lot of punching (or being punched) you're writing him wrong. Which is why this question is difficult to answer. Edit: Also, of course, Captain Strong could whup Superman's ass. Proving that there is strong and then there is POPEYE strong. Toot! Toot!
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 11, 2019 4:43:50 GMT -5
That's an excellent answer, Rep. That story arc by Wein and Starlin was all about Superman recognizing his limitations, ending with the Spectre shutting him down from chasing Kara into the " otherside"
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Post by zaku on Sept 11, 2019 4:58:20 GMT -5
But it sure seems like the DC Comics Presents panel that you posted contradicts the "Superman is invulnerable" theory. The weapons on Mongul's Warworld were certainly enough to hurt Superman Hell, the destruction of Warwold was enough to kill Supergirl. Kinda. Sorta. And if you want pure physical damage it sure seemed like Mongul was hurting him when they fought mano-y-mano in For the Man Who Has Everything. (Superman won, though. My take is that they were equally strong and equally tough, but Mongul didn't have a counter for heat vision.) Before the question I re-read DC Comics Presents #28 (great story by the way, probably DC Comics Presents had some of the best Superman pre-crisis stories) and even there Superman says "perhaps", "maybe", "I think" and so on. So he isn't sure that he can be killed by WarWorld. But, well, he and his cousin are still alive at the end of the story. We had a lot of instance where he was stunned by an opponent, but could he be killed? The other thing is that the idea of Superman being physically hurt was irrelevant for a lot of his history. The post-Code DC comics tried mightily to de-emphasize physical violence, and most of the SA Supes' conflict was emotional. Or Kryptonite-based. Absolutely. And he resolved more problems using his brain than his fists But now the new generations want at least a slugfest every issue... There was an issue of Astro City dedicated to this... googling... Astro City Special: Supersonic Supersonic is a retired hero that, when he was young, fought his baddies in very inventive ways without resorting to violence (akin to the Silver Age Superman), but now, in modern times, the only thing that he could think to stop a giant robot is just punching him... it's a quite fun meta-commentary on the status of modern superhero comics...
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 11, 2019 6:33:24 GMT -5
Excuse me for the a bit morbid question but... In the pre-crisis period, had we ever an instance where a under-the-sun-full-powered Kryptonian was killed by brute force? The question arises from a discussion on another forum, where it was said that Pre-Crisis Superman was literally invulnerable to physical harm. Superman himself said something like that in a story. So, I think that in theory a full-powered Kryptonian could kill another one, but I don't recall any story where something similar happened. So, it could be that Pre-Crisis Superman under a yellow sun (or any other Kryptonian) was literally impossibile to kill by physical means? How about Supergirl in Crisis #7? To add to Superman being "literally invulnerable to physical harm", I do recall a few Silver Age stories where being punched by a fellow Kryptonian didn't produce the equivalent effect of a human being punched by a human as it would during the Bronze Age, but instead elicited only a comment along the lines of "you're wasting your time since neither of us can harm the other". It seemed that rather than a Kryptonian's strength being proportionate to his invulnerability, his invulnerability had no upper limit to the point where you could theoretically have a roomful of Kryptonians punching him to no avail. Of course, there were exceptions even before the Bronze Age. The Prankster had the distinction of being the first foe to even knock Superman out when he ducked a blow Superman swung at him and the man of steel succeeded only in knocking himself out. Not one of his better moments.
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Post by zaku on Sept 11, 2019 7:21:10 GMT -5
How about Supergirl in Crisis #7? They explicitly said that in the Antimonitor universe the laws of physics were different and that their invulnerability was not working. So, no, this isn't a case of a "full-powered Kryptonian"
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Post by foxley on Sept 11, 2019 7:34:10 GMT -5
The example that springs immediately to mind is "The Death of Superman" arc where Superman succumbs to physical wounds inflicted on him by Doomsday. Yep, but I was asking about the Pre-Crisis period Whoops! For some reason I read that as 'post-Crisis'.
The pre-Crisis example I can think of is that a group of Phantom Zone criminals who escaped using jewel kryptonite were disintegrated by the Vrangs. Of course, disintegration may not count as 'physical damage'.
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Post by rberman on Sept 11, 2019 9:15:29 GMT -5
Excuse me for the a bit morbid question but... In the pre-crisis period, had we ever an instance where a under-the-sun-full-powered Kryptonian was killed by brute force? The question arises from a discussion on another forum, where it was said that Pre-Crisis Superman was literally invulnerable to physical harm. Superman himself said something like that in a story. So, I think that in theory a full-powered Kryptonian could kill another one, but I don't recall any story where something similar happened. So, it could be that Pre-Crisis Superman under a yellow sun (or any other Kryptonian) was literally impossibile to kill by physical means? Superman himself was killed in JLA #145. The Phantom Stranger had to enter the spirit realm to rescue his soul and resurrect him.
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Post by zaku on Sept 11, 2019 10:49:54 GMT -5
Superman himself was killed in JLA #145. The Phantom Stranger had to enter the spirit realm to rescue his soul and resurrect him. But he was killed by magic. I was asking about brute force
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Post by zaku on Sept 11, 2019 11:13:52 GMT -5
Yep, but I was asking about the Pre-Crisis period Whoops! For some reason I read that as 'post-Crisis'.
The pre-Crisis example I can think of is that a group of Phantom Zone criminals who escaped using jewel kryptonite were disintegrated by the Vrangs. Of course, disintegration may not count as 'physical damage'. I'm little on the fence about this. Can you provide some detail, please?
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Post by foxley on Sept 11, 2019 11:30:21 GMT -5
Whoops! For some reason I read that as 'post-Crisis'.
The pre-Crisis example I can think of is that a group of Phantom Zone criminals who escaped using jewel kryptonite were disintegrated by the Vrangs. Of course, disintegration may not count as 'physical damage'. I'm little on the fence about this. Can you provide some detail, please? Not a lot, unfortunately. In Action Comics #548, a group of Phantom Zoners use jewel kryptonite to escape from the Zone. In #549, several of them are disintegrated by the Vrang weaponry: the Vrangs being an alien race that once conquered Krypton and who are now trying to conquer. I don't have these issues any more (if I ever did), so I don't know if there was any explanation of how the Vrang weaponry worked.
Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks?
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Sept 11, 2019 14:26:06 GMT -5
Yeah I dunno. Probably unanswerable. Superman can die - that JLA issue proves it, even if the first Death of Superman doesn't - and Superman can be affected by blunt force, but I think the question "Can the Silver and late Bronze Age versions of Pre-Crisis Superman be killed by physical force" was never answered.
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Post by zaku on Sept 11, 2019 16:36:57 GMT -5
Yeah I dunno. Probably unanswerable. Superman can die - that JLA issue proves it, even if the first Death of Superman doesn't - and Superman can be affected by blunt force, but I think the question "Can the Silver and late Bronze Age versions of Pre-Crisis Superman be killed by physical force" was never answered. Yeah, you are probably right. But... what about Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel instead? Can he be killed by physical force?
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Post by zaku on Sept 11, 2019 16:43:06 GMT -5
Wait! Wasn't PreCrisis Faora a psychopathic serial killer? Did she ever kill a fellow Phantom Zone prisoner while they were both superpowered?
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Post by foxley on Sept 11, 2019 17:35:06 GMT -5
Wait! Wasn't PreCrisis Faora a psychopathic serial killer? Did she ever kill a fellow Phantom Zone prisoner while they were both superpowered? Yes, she was. I cannot recall her specifically killing one of her fellow Phantom Zoners, but in their first encounter, she was able to overpower Superman through her knowledge of pressure points. Superman fled before she could use "Dyr-Ynn", the called "Phantom Touch of Death", on him. While not conclusive, the story definitely indicates that both Superman and Faora believed that this would kill him.
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