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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 19:24:09 GMT -5
I asked this earlier today over in the "What Classic Comics Have You Read Lately?" thread, but it's not getting much traction, so I'm asking over here. I recently read Daredevil: Born Again and I'm not sure how I feel about Karen Page ending up a failed soft porn actress and junky, who sells Murdock's secret identity for a hit of heroin. I'll admit that my knowledge of Daredevil is kind of spotty in places: I've read Daredevil up to the end of the '60s, but then I have a big gap until Miller's original run on the book starts in 1979. I remember Matt revealing his secret to Karen in the late 60s, but I don't recall her leaving to go off and become an actress. I think I'm right in saying that she's entirely absent from Miller's original late 70s/early 80s run though, right? So, I'm curious which authors changed her character so much? Having Karen portrayed as such a troubled and desperate wretch works great in the context of Born Again, but I found it kind of hard to reconcile the tragic, pathetic figure we see in that arc with the bubbly, always smartly attired, Karen Page that I know from the Silver Age Karen leaves in DD #86 to become an actress. She has a brief appearance in #138. Then her next appearance in DD is #227. She has some appearances in a few places (Ghost Rider #20, MTIO #46) that show her in Hollywood as an actress. So yeah Miller is the first to depict her as a porn actress and drug addict.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 12, 2019 23:52:00 GMT -5
I asked this earlier today over in the "What Classic Comics Have You Read Lately?" thread, but it's not getting much traction, so I'm asking over here. I recently read Daredevil: Born Again and I'm not sure how I feel about Karen Page ending up a failed soft porn actress and junky, who sells Murdock's secret identity for a hit of heroin. I'll admit that my knowledge of Daredevil is kind of spotty in places: I've read Daredevil up to the end of the '60s, but then I have a big gap until Miller's original run on the book starts in 1979. I remember Matt revealing his secret to Karen in the late 60s, but I don't recall her leaving to go off and become an actress. I think I'm right in saying that she's entirely absent from Miller's original late 70s/early 80s run though, right? So, I'm curious which authors changed her character so much? Having Karen portrayed as such a troubled and desperate wretch works great in the context of Born Again, but I found it kind of hard to reconcile the tragic, pathetic figure we see in that arc with the bubbly, always smartly attired, Karen Page that I know from the Silver Age Karen leaves in DD #86 to become an actress. She has a brief appearance in #138. Then her next appearance in DD is #227. She has some appearances in a few places (Ghost Rider #20, MTIO #46) that show her in Hollywood as an actress. So yeah Miller is the first to depict her as a porn actress and drug addict. Well, given that he turned Catwoman into a dominatrix and prostitute, it shouldn't be surprising. Frank doesn't seem to have much time for happy, bubbly women in his comics. Much more for prostitutes and "fallen women." Martha Washington is about as positive as a portrayal as you will find in his work, though she is made rather masculine throughout/
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Post by rberman on Apr 13, 2019 5:02:18 GMT -5
Karen leaves in DD #86 to become an actress. She has a brief appearance in #138. Then her next appearance in DD is #227. She has some appearances in a few places (Ghost Rider #20, MTIO #46) that show her in Hollywood as an actress. So yeah Miller is the first to depict her as a porn actress and drug addict. Well, given that he turned Catwoman into a dominatrix and prostitute, it shouldn't be surprising. Frank doesn't seem to have much time for happy, bubbly women in his comics. Much more for prostitutes and "fallen women." Martha Washington is about as positive as a portrayal as you will find in his work, though she is made rather masculine throughout. Or happy bubby men either. Miller is very much a noir guy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 7:23:53 GMT -5
Alan Napier played Alfred in the 60s Batman series. In 1989's Batman, Joker's name was revealed to be Jack Napier. Was this a tribute to Alan Napier or a coincidence? It would be odd to pay tribute to Alan Napier by giving his surname to a villain, but I don't believe in coincidences.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 13, 2019 9:11:06 GMT -5
Alan Napier played Alfred in the 60s Batman series. In 1989's Batman, Joker's name was revealed to be Jack Napier. Was this a tribute to Alan Napier or a coincidence? It would be odd to pay tribute to Alan Napier by giving his surname to a villain, but I don't believe in coincidences. That movie was nearly 10 years in development, with a script that started out adapting the Englehart/Rogers material. I doubt it was an homage; more likely a series of name changes that led to it. If they wanted to do that, why not pay tribute to the other actors of the series? They were doing everything to distance themselves from te tv series; so, I say no.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 13, 2019 9:13:56 GMT -5
Well, given that he turned Catwoman into a dominatrix and prostitute, it shouldn't be surprising. Frank doesn't seem to have much time for happy, bubbly women in his comics. Much more for prostitutes and "fallen women." Martha Washington is about as positive as a portrayal as you will find in his work, though she is made rather masculine throughout. Or happy bubby men either. Miller is very much a noir guy. I think it is more personal than being a fan of crime fiction and films. Eisner filled the Spirit with expressionist and noir film influences and crime fiction; yet he had positive figures to contrast that. Miller seems to darken whatever character he touches, which suggests, to me, his own personality.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 9:24:52 GMT -5
Karen leaves in DD #86 to become an actress. She has a brief appearance in #138. Then her next appearance in DD is #227. She has some appearances in a few places (Ghost Rider #20, MTIO #46) that show her in Hollywood as an actress. So yeah Miller is the first to depict her as a porn actress and drug addict. Well, given that he turned Catwoman into a dominatrix and prostitute, it shouldn't be surprising. Frank doesn't seem to have much time for happy, bubbly women in his comics. Much more for prostitutes and "fallen women." Martha Washington is about as positive as a portrayal as you will find in his work, though she is made rather masculine throughout/ When Miller came on the scene back then I thought he was brilliant mainly because no one else was writing stuff like him. But as time went on I realized he used the same elements over & over and I realized he was limited in his writing skills.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 9:26:07 GMT -5
Or happy bubby men either. Miller is very much a noir guy. I think it is more personal than being a fan of crime fiction and films. Eisner filled the Spirit with expressionist and noir film influences and crime fiction; yet he had positive figures to contrast that. Miller seems to darken whatever character he touches, which suggests, to me, his own personality."You write what you know"
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Post by rberman on Apr 13, 2019 9:36:46 GMT -5
I think it is more personal than being a fan of crime fiction and films. Eisner filled the Spirit with expressionist and noir film influences and crime fiction; yet he had positive figures to contrast that. Miller seems to darken whatever character he touches, which suggests, to me, his own personality."You write what you know" In other words... he is a noir guy.
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 13, 2019 10:45:30 GMT -5
"You write what you know" In other words... he is a noir guy. Or thinks he is.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Apr 13, 2019 12:02:09 GMT -5
Alan Napier played Alfred in the 60s Batman series. In 1989's Batman, Joker's name was revealed to be Jack Napier. Was this a tribute to Alan Napier or a coincidence? It would be odd to pay tribute to Alan Napier by giving his surname to a villain, but I don't believe in coincidences. That movie was nearly 10 years in development, with a script that started out adapting the Englehart/Rogers material. I doubt it was an homage; more likely a series of name changes that led to it. If they wanted to do that, why not pay tribute to the other actors of the series? They were doing everything to distance themselves from te tv series; so, I say no. I thought it was a play on "jackanape / jackanapes."
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 13, 2019 12:09:39 GMT -5
That movie was nearly 10 years in development, with a script that started out adapting the Englehart/Rogers material. I doubt it was an homage; more likely a series of name changes that led to it. If they wanted to do that, why not pay tribute to the other actors of the series? They were doing everything to distance themselves from te tv series; so, I say no. I thought it was a play on "jackanape / jackanapes." Well done.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Apr 13, 2019 14:57:46 GMT -5
Karen leaves in DD #86 to become an actress. She has a brief appearance in #138. Then her next appearance in DD is #227. She has some appearances in a few places (Ghost Rider #20, MTIO #46) that show her in Hollywood as an actress. So yeah Miller is the first to depict her as a porn actress and drug addict. Karen was a regular in Ghost Rider for about two years, appearing in most issues between #13 and 26. She was co-starring in a movie with Stunt-Master. Her porn films probably had more artistic merit. Tony Isabella's cast of supporting characters also included Jesus Christ and Wendy and Richard Pini, for some reason.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Apr 13, 2019 15:08:50 GMT -5
Is the Loki who appears in Timely's Venus comics considered to be the same character who appears later in Journey into Mystery? Have his 1940s appearances been referenced by any modern comics writers? The Marvel Chronology Project considers them to be different characters, LOKI/LOKI LAUFEYSON from JIM and LOKI II/"LUCIFER"/"SATAN"/"MR. NATAS" from Venus.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 13, 2019 17:56:58 GMT -5
That movie was nearly 10 years in development, with a script that started out adapting the Englehart/Rogers material. I doubt it was an homage; more likely a series of name changes that led to it. If they wanted to do that, why not pay tribute to the other actors of the series? They were doing everything to distance themselves from te tv series; so, I say no. I thought it was a play on "jackanape / jackanapes." Fillmore East beat me too it.
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