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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 1, 2014 22:08:37 GMT -5
It occurs to me that Ant-Man, the Human Torch and - at this point in time - Thor are kind of like the younger readers line of the early Marvel Universe. The plots and and character development are a lot less complex/sophisticated than in Fantastic Four/Spider-man/Dr. Strange.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jun 1, 2014 22:44:49 GMT -5
It occurs to me that Ant-Man, the Human Torch and - at this point in time - Thor are kind of like the younger readers line of the early Marvel Universe. The plots and and character development are a lot less complex/sophisticated than in Fantastic Four/Spider-man/Dr. Strange. For the most part,that was due to the writing skills of Larry Leiber,who I long believed was Jack Schiff moonlighting at Marvel using an alias
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 1, 2014 22:49:13 GMT -5
It occurs to me that Ant-Man, the Human Torch and - at this point in time - Thor are kind of like the younger readers line of the early Marvel Universe. The plots and and character development are a lot less complex/sophisticated than in Fantastic Four/Spider-man/Dr. Strange. For the most part,that was due to the writing skills of Larry Leiber,who I long believed was Jack Schiff moonlighting at Marvel using an alias That's just mean. (But I'm not sure if Leiber or Schiff is the one who should be insulted.)
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 1, 2014 22:57:26 GMT -5
It occurs to me that Ant-Man, the Human Torch and - at this point in time - Thor are kind of like the younger readers line of the early Marvel Universe. The plots and and character development are a lot less complex/sophisticated than in Fantastic Four/Spider-man/Dr. Strange. We're still nearly a year away from Dr. Strange and six months from Spidey's book at this point. Torch solos next month...And those stories are painful. But you're basically right.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jun 1, 2014 22:58:15 GMT -5
For the most part,that was due to the writing skills of Larry Leiber,who I long believed was Jack Schiff moonlighting at Marvel using an alias That's just mean. (But I'm not sure if Leiber or Schiff is the one who should be insulted.) Your right.I should rein in my negativity.I'll try,I'll try
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 1, 2014 23:12:46 GMT -5
It occurs to me that Ant-Man, the Human Torch and - at this point in time - Thor are kind of like the younger readers line of the early Marvel Universe. The plots and and character development are a lot less complex/sophisticated than in Fantastic Four/Spider-man/Dr. Strange. We're still nearly a year away from Dr. Strange and six months from Spidey's book at this point. Torch solos next month...And those stories are painful. But you're basically right. The early Torch stories aren't that bad. Even really dumb stuff like Namor blowing himself up like a puffer fish is amusing. The Torch series doesn't reach its low point until the Thing becomes his co-star.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 2, 2014 14:54:43 GMT -5
For the most part,that was due to the writing skills of Larry Leiber,who I long believed was Jack Schiff moonlighting at Marvel using an alias I generally like his Western stuff, though, and the first Iron Man story is brilliant - and Iron Man in general seems to be written for an older crowd, although it's often not good. And "aimed at younger readers" doesn't equal BAD in my eyes - I kinda dig the first year and change of Torch strips. Paste Pot Pete!
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jun 2, 2014 15:05:14 GMT -5
For the most part,that was due to the writing skills of Larry Leiber,who I long believed was Jack Schiff moonlighting at Marvel using an alias I generally like his Western stuff, though, and the first Iron Man story is brilliant - and Iron Man in general seems to be written for an older crowd, although it's often not good. And "aimed at younger readers" doesn't equal BAD in my eyes - I kinda dig the first year and change of Torch strips. Paste Pot Pete! During the early Marvel Age age of Superheroes,Stan Lee did the plot and Larry Leiber scripted.Based on track record I gave credit to Stan for any signs of originality,cleverness or whatever ranked above bland in those stories. But I'm sure Larry was a nice guy. A good man.I don't want to be mean
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 7, 2014 13:07:32 GMT -5
I'm just about to START my reading today, so hopefully I'll be caught up with you guys soon. (For the record, I've made it till mid-1966 in the past trying to read all the titles in chronological order before getting sidetracked)
Ya know, I've always felt that those early Strange Tales stories featuring the Torch were Marvel's way of exorcising all the Silver Age DC goofiness out of their systems. Well, maybe not all, but it sure as hell seemed that way the first time I read them. Then again, the point that they weren't as sophisticated or as good as Spidey/Strange/FF probably had the most to do with the talents of Kirby and Ditko being really into the source material. To my knowledge, Ant-Man was the only original Marvel Age hero that Kirby never liked.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 7, 2014 18:13:59 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #6 “Captives of the Deadly Duo”
Written by Stan Lee Pencils by Jack Kirby Inks by Dick Ayers
Cover:
Ummm...okay. This kind of a funky cover. The figures are quite stiff. In fact Doom looks like an automaton. The Thing barely looks bigger than Sue. At a quick glance it's not horrible, but if you really look at it...it kind of is.
The Story:
We open with a look at the way the normal folk of the not-quite-yet Marvel Universe look at the Marvels among them. The look at The Torch flying above and again, Sue decides to barge through a crowd invisibly and then turn visible. Apparently it's a bit of a fetish with her. The two are headed back to the Baxter Building after looking for Doom. Sue searches better when she's invisible. Upon reaching the Building Sue uses her secret belt-buckle to call the FF's personal express elevator, explaining exactly how it works to a messenger who had been waiting for it in vain. Hopefully he's not a Skrull or some other villain in disguise. We also get a diagram of the FF headquarters again for the third time in six issues...and it's still bigger yet. Since they can't find Doom they decide to answer their fan mail. Reed stretches across the street to talk to a kid in the hospital and explain about “unstable molecules” (Hank Pym had them a week or two earlier). Ben gets a non-fan letter from The Yancy Street Gang.
Meanwhile Namor is playing with some porpoises and, from the smile on his face having a good time. However, he's interrupted by Doctor Doom who has a proposition for him. They travel to Namor's undersea lair, complete with 8x10 glossy photo of Sue Storm, to discuss their plans. Doom proposes that they team up to defeat the FF. They can do this using the power of “Magnetism” because it can do anything. Doom has invented a “Grabber” that can move anything. It's clear that his genius doesn't extend to naming his inventions. Namor agrees...as long as Sue won't be harmed.
Namor flies to New York and walks through the streets as the awed crowd parts. A couple of policemen think about taking him in for “making a disturbance” but decide not too. Because he didn't just invade New York a couple of months back with an army of monsters. He clearly wouldn't be wanted for that. Nope. Meanwhile, Johnny is looking in a bookcase and finds an 8x10 glossy of Subby. Sue is upset because it belongs to her. Johnny burns it and Reed feels Sue owes “them” an explanation. Not him...her fiancee...but them the team. He's a romantic feller. Nobody demands an explanation of when Subby, a villain, started sending out headshots. Maybe Don Draper was also publicity agent to the Super-illain set.
We don't get much explanation of either as Namor appears in the same room as the FF, apparently having flown in a window. Reed probably should do something about the security at the Baxter Building. Ben instantly wants to attack but is held back by Reed as Sue runs to stand in front of Namor, she wants to talk. Johnny then decides to menace him with his flames to the extent of burning a hole in the floor, but Namor can fly. Apparently this now wears out Johnny's flame something we really haven't seen before. Namor claims that he comes in peace to become friends. Reed and Johnny run to check the camera room and see whether he's left a trap somewhere (maybe less cameras and better window protection would be good). Namor is about to leave to squire Sue around town when the Baxter Building takes off into space like a rocket. Namor has placed the “grabber” before he entered the room and now Doom is towing the building into space. Oddly, the building can be ripped free of its foundation and fly through the air without collapsing. An architectural marvel. Namor had been planning to be out of the building with Sue. He's been betrayed by Doom! Duh! For some reason he can't just fly out the window he flew into. Because...reasons.
The air thins, but luckily the sturdy windows keep the air in the Baxter Building...the same windows that couldn't keep out Namor. As they reach space, they try to get to Doom. Well...Johnny does, but his flame won't work without oxygen. And Reed tries, but fails. So it's up to Namor. He replenishes himself in a water storage tank, because every building has a water storage tank, and heads into space jumping from asteroid to asteroid to get to Doom's ship (okay it sounds hokey, but this is actually one of the best scenes that Kirby has done so far in the book). Namor reaches the ship and defeats “magnetism” and an electric shock (using his electric eel abilities (do we ever see these again)? Doom has to escape into space where he will be lost forever.
The Baxter Building is returned whence it came. Of course it won't be solid on its foundation...it will have been pulled from water, sewer and power...but that's not important. What is important is that they've been saved by Namor. Ben doesn't know whether to fight him or kiss him. The can't get the grabber unhooked from the building (where it was at the structural epicenter of the building) but it just frees itself returning to Doom's ship, which Namor ditches in the ocean. Because he can't possibly have a use for a combo airplane/submarine/spaceship. Better just to sink it in the ocean.
Thoughts…
The FF is monthly in the idicia. A big step given the distribution strictures that Marvel was under at the time. Pretty clear evidence the book was doing very well.
The first repeat villains and the first super-villain team-up in one package. Impressive.
The opening of the story is pretty cool and seems like a clear inspiration for the Marvels miniseries. However, it suffers a bit from that “silly skepticism.” One of the bystanders compares the FF to flying saucers. Of course at this point the MU has been invaded three times in 11 total stories. Even allowing that the Skrulls aren't common knowledge, the Toad Men and the Stone Men were widespread alien invasions.
The Sue/Namor thing still seems silly, but it's clearly going to be a thing...and why not, with Reed being less than a ladies man.
Magnetism...it can do anything. If it can't...radiation can.
In addition to the Namor/Sue thing, we also have some moral ambiguity in Namor that wasn't anywhere near the norm in long-underwear books at the time. Add to that that Ben is not quite as assholish and aggressive this time around.
The plot…Leaving aside the really awful funnybook science, this is a decent story. It's interesting that the heroes are pretty universally ineffective in this one. Namor saves their bacon even though he's been duped by Doom.
The art...Another really nice outing by Kirby, this time with Ayers. Solid overall there are some real standout scenes in particular Namor going from the Baxter Building to Dooms' ship.
The toll: One photo of Namor. A hole in the floor of the Baxter Building. Untold damage to the Baxter Building and the surrounding block from it being yanked from its foundation and hauled into space and then put back. One Doom multi-purpose plane/sub/spaceship.
Grade for historic importance: B+ Story – B - Art – B
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 7, 2014 18:59:09 GMT -5
OMG! Do you realize the terror that would be unleashed if someone could combine the power of magnetism, radiation and TRANSISTORS into one device?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 7, 2014 23:56:41 GMT -5
The more I look at FF 6, the more I'm not sure I believe it was inked by Dick Ayers. If it was its the best he and Kirby ever looked together.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 8, 2014 0:15:44 GMT -5
Pages 1-3 are inked by Joe Sinnott but the rest is distinctly Ayers.
Cei-U! I summon the multiple hands!
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 8, 2014 1:33:01 GMT -5
OMG! Do you realize the terror that would be unleashed if someone could combine the power of magnetism, radiation and TRANSISTORS into one device? Stan Lee -- Comic book legend and layman science enthusiast.
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Post by tolworthy on Jun 8, 2014 9:29:01 GMT -5
Leaving aside the really awful funnybook science Needless to say I will be focusing on the science of FF 6 when I next update my website Thanks to your excellent pointers I just spent a happy couple of hours exploring exactly how Doom does his stuff, and it's remarkably consistent. but I won't derail the thread with my usual super long list of details. Regarding the Toad Men, I have long held that believability is the key to good superhero comics. yes, it might require mental gymnastics, but exercise is good for you. But the invasion of the Toad Men, and later the Metal Master, destroyed believability: both were events that were supposedly seen by the whole world, including readers of the comic. I think it's no coincidence that the Hulk, which broke the believability rule twice in six issues, was cancelled. When he came back he had smaller adventures in a remote desert - something we can believe maybe happened - and sales increased.
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