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Post by Action Ace on May 7, 2014 0:11:51 GMT -5
I got both the Marvel Treasury Edition and Issue #176 back in 1976 so this was either the second or third FF story I ever read.
My observations as a six year old:
Invaders(I read issue #6 before FF) has two torches and Namor is a good guy. Does that take place on Marvel Earth Two and Fantastic Four take place on Marvel Earth One?
I will use Bah! in a sentence as often as I can.
Is Namor from Vulcan like Mr. Spock? (I knew about Marvel and DC being different universes by now, so I wasn't expecting Aquaman to show up and stop this)
What happened to the Thing??? He looks awful.
Human Torch is my favorite of the four. (no change 38 years later)
Thing is my least favorite of the four. (no change 38 years later)
I don't know where this Bowery is, but I'm not going there.
Giganto is awesome, but I don't think he has a chance against Godzilla.
Reed just stretches, why is he called Mr. Fantastic?
Despite lumpy Thing, there are a lot of good looking panels in this issue.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 7, 2014 0:29:18 GMT -5
Outstanding observations six-year old Ace.
I hope you're still using Bah in sentences.
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Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 1:27:09 GMT -5
I just shared this in the Fantastic Four thread, and felt, in all fairness, it needed to be here too...here's a neat curiosity of an interpretation of FF #4 from 1975, and featuring a certain Bill Murray as the voice of the Torch.
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Post by Cei-U! on May 7, 2014 8:22:38 GMT -5
A good friend of mine did the sound effects for that '75-76 radio show, Miss F. I used to have a set of LPs containing the complete series but, alas, it was destroyed in a house fire and never replaced. I do still have the official cast & crew t-shirt that came with it (though I haven't fit into it in 35+ years). I'm always tickled when anyone remembers the program.
By the way, Bill Murray also voices the Hulk/Bruce Banner during the run.
Cei-U! I summon my old portable!
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Post by Rob Allen on May 7, 2014 19:31:14 GMT -5
Sue keeps referring to Johnny as The Torch which is weird. He's her little brother. She calls Reed by name. Odd. That always bothered me too, even more so with Ben - why would Reed start addressing his old friend as "Thing"?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 10, 2014 11:01:29 GMT -5
Incredible Hulk #1
Written by Stan Lee
Pencils by Jack Kirby
Inks by Paul Reinman
Cover:
Interesting cover. We see Banner (obviously we don't know who he is yet) representationally turning in to the Hulk. The colors are very muted though. Gray and yellow predominating. It works...but it wouldn't really pop on the newsstand.
The Story:
Page one starts us off with essentially a pin-up of The Hulk. Pretty nice for this period Kirby. We then move to the desert where they're testing the incredible G-Bomb. Stan and Jack introduce us to the cast pretty quickly. Bruce Banner is the brilliant scientist who “doesn't make mistakes.” General Thunderbolt Ross is the loud-mouthed man of action who suffers from severe narcissism. Betty Ross is his daughter, who seems to have the hots for Banner, and is at a secret bomb testing for no apparent reason. Igor is the lab assistant who besides having a suspicious name wants the secret to the G-Bomb that only Banner holds in his head.
As the countdown works it's way to a close, Banner sees a teen in a jalopy drive in to the testing range. Rather than send a military policeman to go arrest him, Banner drives out to do it himself, telling Igor to delay the countdown. Igor doesn't...I knew he was suspicious. As the clock ticks down, Banner throws orphan Rick Jones to “safety” as the bomb goes off and bombards him with gamma radiation. It's a little hard to say if the bomb is a success. Both Banner and Rick survive. So it doesn't kill by radiation. The blast, such as we see, doesn't seem that much better than your standard old A-Bomb. Maybe Banner isn't such a genius after all.
And survive they do. Jones brings him back to the army base (because the army wouldn't go looking for one of their top scientists). At sundown, a handy Geiger counter begins to go off and Banner turns in to The Hulk (original gray flavor). This is a smaller Hulk than we see later on. He doesn't completely destroy Banner's shirt trousers or shoes...and he doesn't have purple pants. The Hulk busts down the wall of the room, destroys a jeep with four soldiers in it and runs off into the desert with Rick following him.
The army is following the Hulk who doubles back to find Banner's cabin and “the formula.” While this Hulk clearly isn't a rocket scientist he also isn't the Hulk Smash! edition. There is a reasonable amount of intelligence here. He holds a pretty detailed conversation with Rick Jones at Banner's cabin. When they get there Igor is searching for the Gamma Bomb formula because he's a Commie spy (go figure with a name like Igor). He shoots the Hulk, who proceeds to mop up the lab with him. The Hulk sees a picture of Banner and hates him for being weak, realizes the Gamma rays made him what he is, is happy about it and then becomes Banner as the sun rises. The M.P.s come and nobody can figure out where the Hulk went. Igor is arrested and Banner and Betty play a nerd courting ritual as Rick looks on.
Igor, in jail, sends a message behind the Iron Curtain to The Gargoyle. Everyone is terrified of him, apparently because he looks like an infant with gigantism. He rides a missile into the U.S. to capture the Hulk, not for study...not because he's a threat...but as a demonstration of his might. Okey-dokey...there's a good use of State resources. Meanwhile, Banner and Rick leave the base because the sun is going to go down...which it does while they're driving causing the destruction of yet another jeep. They're near Ross's house, so naturally The Hulk goes to see Betty, who is mooning over Banner. When she sees The Hulk she swoons...and then The Gargoyle shows up. He shoots Hulk and Rick with super secret pellets of his own devising that sap your will and make you the shooters slave. How they know that you're the shooter is another issue..but it's funnybook science...roll with it.
The Gargoyle transports The Hulk and Rick back to Soviet Asia (lotta emphasis on Asia) During the trip the sun rises and Banner reappears. This is perplexing until The Gargoyle works out that The Hulk is Banner. He then goes in to a toddler meldown, because all he really wants is to be a normal man...or a real live boy...even if it kills him. Banner, of course can do this because he's a super-scientist. However, The Gargoyles intelligence is somehow an offshoot of his hideous looks...so he'll just be normal if he's fixed. Ummmm...yeah. The now ex-Gargoyle lets Banner and Rick escape in a missile while he blows up himself and the installation striking a blow for democracy.
Thoughts…
While there is a lot of funnybook science here and some weird plot movements this is a pretty solid book. We're introduced to the core of The Hulk supporting characters in the first three pages. Obviously we don't know at this point, but we do in retrospect, that it's going to take some time for the creators to figure out The Hulks power levels, intelligence and why he changes. At this point its a pretty clear Jekyll/Hyde riff.
This is by far the most Red Scare book we've seen in the now burgeoning Marvel U.
The plot. This is pretty pure Red Scare Atom Age Monster book. It's not deep and it's pretty hoary even for 1962. But it's fun and honestly is generally better than what we'd seen in the first four issues of F.F.
The Art: Overall, this is the strongest work by Kirby thus far. I'm not sure if it's Reinman's inks or if he has a better affinity at this point for The Hulk, but it's generally much stronger than the first four issues of F.F.
The toll: The wall of the room that Bruce and Rick are in when he first becomes The Hulk, two jeeps (one of which contained four soldiers who almost had to be injured). One pistol taken from Igor and crushed. Banner's lab/cabin.
Grade for historic importance: A
Story - B
Art – B
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Post by Hoosier X on May 10, 2014 11:35:24 GMT -5
I love Rick Jones's attitude. "The gang bet me I'd be too chicken to sneak onto a nuclear testing site, BUT I'LL SHOW 'EM!"
And then there's this: "Dr. Banner, the military security guys are on a donut break, so we don't have anybody free who can go warn that kid. I guess you'll have to do it. That's the protocol. Werner von Braun had to do it once and he didn't complain!"
I just can't quite put my finger on what's suspicious about Igor. (But then I'm always surprised when the kindly mad scientist played by Bela Lugosi turns out to be the one who's been abducting all the pretty young virgins. He's always so helpful when the sheriff comes by to ask if he's seen anything unusual!)
P.S. Hulk #1 is pretty awesome! But even when I was 12 and first read it in Origins of Marvel Comics, I could see it had a few problems.
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Post by Cei-U! on May 10, 2014 12:24:06 GMT -5
I think this first Hulk story is the best of the Lee/Kirby origins. I agree with all of your assessments and observations, Slam. I think this particular book works so well in spite of its faults because of its (probably unintentional) use of what Camille Paglia calls, in the book of the same name, "sexual personae": a pantheon of gender archetypes we have responded to, usually subconsciously, throughout our cultural history. You have Banner, uberwimp by day, monstrous macho man by night, Stanley Kowalski on steroids (Hulk doesn't go after Betty to read her poetry by the moonlight). Ross is the disapproving father/authority figure, Rick the impetuous adolescent, etc. And then there's Gargoyle, yet another of the giant fetuses Kirby has gifted us with over the years, so desperate to escape his asexual prison and become "normal" that he betrays his nation and kills everyone he works with to get it. It's all ever-so-slightly twisted and it happens mostly below the surface but it gives this an edge many origin stories lack.
Cei-U! It's deep, baby!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 10, 2014 12:27:01 GMT -5
A few additional thoughts that didn't make the cut and paste somehow.
There's a definite Karloff Frankenstein feel to The Hulk, particularly with the gray coloring.
Genius Banner hides his lab notes taped to the bottom of a glass beaker. Genius clearly doesn't include being good at hiding stuff.
We get the first instance of The Hulk hating Banner and calling him puny. Self-loathing from the outset.
Marvel America has a working SDI program in 1962. Or at least scud missiles that actually work. Maybe Banner perfected them.
Thunderbolt Ross vows to hunt down The Hulk after he causes Betty to swoon. Foreshadowing. Whoya gonna call?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on May 10, 2014 12:36:25 GMT -5
Slam touched upon something i hadn't thought about.Exactly what is the difference between a gamma bomb and an atomic/hydrogen bomb? Is it cheaper to make,more powerful,less radiation or something else? I don't remember any marvel comic explaining its original intent.
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Post by Jasoomian on May 10, 2014 16:41:33 GMT -5
Gamma will turn you either gray or green, since all start with the letter, "G". That's just science.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 11, 2014 22:14:25 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #5 “Prisoners of Doctor Doom
Written by Stan Lee Pencils by Jack Kirby Inks by Sol Sinnott
Cover:
Man there's a lot of text on this cover. I'm not per se against word balloons on a cover, but this one probably overdoes it. We see all four heroes using their powers and a representation of our new villain, Doctor Doom, being menacing. But it's not a strong cover in my opinion.
The Story:
We open with a 2/3 splash of Doom moving FF chess pieces as a vulture looks on. Doom muses that only the FF have the power to defeat him. Naturally he's going to challenge them instead of avoiding them and the possibility of defeat. He's a genius, don'tcha know. Meanwhile, in “The Tower” the FF are hanging out at home. Johnny is reading a copy of Hulk #1 and taunting Ben that they look alike. This prompts a battle between the two and another broken table and a burnt copy of Hulk #1. Reed and Sue quell the battle just as a giant net is dropped over the building from a helicopter (with eyes and a mouth) cutting the power to the building, which has its own generators. Reed recognizes the voice that challenges them as that of Victor von Doom and we get the Cliffs Notes version of his origin.
The net is flame-resistant and electrified such as to hurt The Thing. Doom demands that Sue be a hostage (how original) until the group can hear his demands. She agrees and he turns off a portion of the net so she can go to the top of the building. Why the others don't also use that at the same time, is clearly one of Reed's genius tactical decisions. Sue is bound and gagged (Suffering Sappho!) and the boys are then taken aboard the helicopter via a giant bird cage. No reason is given why they can't escape other than Doom's evil genius. At the Doom lair (which is only minutes away from New York City) Doom sits on a throne complete with tiger at his side. Odd to see castle in New York...but whatcha gonna do. The boys can't attack...because they promised not too. Pretty sure that promises made because your partner is a hostage shouldn't be binding...but what do I know.
Doom has built a time machine and wants the fellers to go back and get the legendary treasure of Blackbeard. Doom can't go himself, because he has to work the time machine. Why he can't send someone less dangerous to him than the FF is not discussed. I'm sure there's a genius reason for it. The treasure once belonged to Merlin and will make the owner invincible. Why Merlin wasn't therefore invincible is another of those lil glitches.
The three fellers are sent back in time and almost immediately mug some pirates to get clothing. Ben is fitted with a wig and a black beard. Hmmmm.... The fellers get some drugged grog and are shanghaied onto a pirate ship, something that was incredibly rare on pirate ships. They awaken and take over the ship with Ben being named captain. They're almost immediately attacked by another pirate ship (also very rare) that is “loaded with treasure”. Why they'd attack if they were already loaded is not delved into. Johnny fires the opposing sails and then dives into the ocean to make steam...and render himself useless. The pirates attack using Reed as a bridge. This is almost the first time in five issues his power has been useful..but man...all those pirates plus Ben on his back! The ship is taken thanks to the newly christened Blackbeard (Ben). Yes Ben is the legendary Blackbeard...and in the hold of the captured ship is the treasure Doom wants. Kismet is on the side of the FF.
Reed divides the jewels among the crew and fills the chest with heavy chains. This is because he “only promised to bring the treasure chest, not the treasure.” This is 100% horse hockey. Doom clearly told them to bring the treasure of Blackbeard not the stupid chest. Why it's okay for Reed to break this promise, but not to have attacked when they had a clear shot at Doom is again a mystery. Ben doesn't want to go back to the present...so instead of just refusing, he has Johnny and Reed tied up and cast adrift in a lifeboat. However, a serendipitous “twister” hits, destroying the ship and the three “heroes” and the treasure chest wash ashore at the same place just in time for Doom to return them to the present.
Doom is not pleased at the old chains...and the Four (minus Sue the hostage) finally attack...but it's the very first DOOMBOT! Doom is on closed circuit crystal ball and hermetically seals the room and begins to withdraw the air from the room. Sue, being ignored by Doom, turns invisible (including the ropes binding her) and causes an explosion that incapacitates Doom. She then opens the door freeing the boys. Sue is actually useful as more than a hostage! They escape using their powers...including Johnny somehow fusing the ground under the moat full of alligators into glass...which doesn't explain why the water doesn't just flow back onto it since it's at the bottom of the moat. Yeah. Doom escapes using a rocket pack when Johnny's flame wears out. Doom is at large...but they'll find them.
Thoughts…
I have to wonder if Stan and Jack were starting to work “Marvel style” here, because the art and the story don't really jib in a number of places. It would make more sense if they had different ideas of what was going on.
The fact that Johnny is reading a copy of Hulk #1 is interesting. It isn't clear evidence that the characters are in the same universe at this point. It seems odd that the Hulk would have just appeared and yet still have a new comic on the stands.
Sooo...is there an actual Blackbeard in the MU? If Ben was Blackbeard, his entire career consists of less than 24 hours on on ship and one battle. Hardly the stuff of legend.
There is nothing said about Reed being involved in Doom's maiming. And what exactly are “forbidden experiments”? It doesn't appear that Doom was involved in cloning or human sacrifice. I guess we're just supposed to know what is forbidden. There's also no indication that Doom is from Latveria.
Ben rightfully grouses about Doom's escape. Reed has the tactical ability of a kindergartner. Ben vows next time they'll do it his way. Maybe they should. Though after his exploits in setting Reed and Johnny adrift I have no idea why they'd trust him.
The plot…Wow...this was pretty awful. For the first appearance of a classic villain it's incredibly weak and Doom's plan makes little to no sense.
The art...Another leap forward. By far the best art on FF thus far as Joe Sinnott joins in. Still not a patch on what it will become, but this is leaps and bounds beyond where we have been.
The toll: One table. One copy of Hulk #1. Doom's headquarters, which is set fire by Johnny...though it appears to be stone...so....yeah.
Grade for historic importance: A- Story – D + Art – B
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Post by Hoosier X on May 11, 2014 23:27:53 GMT -5
Yeah, FF #5 has always been a disappointment, storywise. I read it in Bring on the Bad Guys when that volume was brand new (1977, I think?) and though it might have seemed quite clever to ten-year-olds in 1962, 13-year-old Hoosier X wasn't too impressed in 1977.
Now, the origin of Dr. Doom from the second FF annual! That was classic! And everything else in Bring on the Bad Guys is GOLD!
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Post by Ish Kabbible on May 12, 2014 0:49:44 GMT -5
Yeah, FF #5 has always been a disappointment, storywise. I read it in Bring on the Bad Guys when that volume was brand new (1977, I think?) and though it might have seemed quite clever to ten-year-olds in 1962, 13-year-old Hoosier X wasn't too impressed in 1977. Now, the origin of Dr. Doom from the second FF annual! That was classic! And everything else in Bring on the Bad Guys is GOLD! I read it as a 10/11 year old in 1965 in a reprint and it was disappointing as well.Yes,the 2nd FF annual is the definitive version
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Post by tolworthy on May 12, 2014 1:48:25 GMT -5
Loving this thread. I'm using the criticisms to improve my FF site: everything that seems bad at first always turns out to be the gateway to something magical. Thanks, guys! It will come as no surprise that I consider the first five issues of the FF to be classics of the highest order, Shakespearian in quality. I'm not joking! I won't defend all the points raised here - I'd be here all day! But here are a couple of points I stumbled on this morning thanks to this thread. The glass pathway at the end of FF5Why doesn't the water flow over the path again? This is an example of "show don't tell": the picture demonstrates that the path is higher than its surroundings. The process of super heating the river bed would cause air bubbles to expand, making the vitrified substance bulge upwards. The most likely candidate fro Dr Doom's castle is Dark Island Castle (now known as Singer Castle), which is built on a shallow part of the riverbed, so Johnny would not need to expand the bed very far. Incidentally, this is the first known use of the Torch's power to extract heat as well as supply it.: vitrification relies on removing as well as adding heat: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VitrificationThe significance of Merlin's treasure
Merlin is a major figure in the Franklinverse: like Franklin he straddles dimensions so appears in numerous variant forms. His daughter Roma inherited his role as omniversal guardian, and ensures Valeria's survival. One of the very few mentions of these gems is in Dazzler issue 4: one of the stones at this point is in Nightmare's dream dimension. The only similar objects are the infinity gems that assist the skilled user in various powers over time and space. These are sometimes embedded in the infinity gauntlets, as worn by the various incarnations of Reed Richards before Franklin finally gains peace in FF600. Based on all of this. Merlin's treasure is almost certainly connected with dimension hopping, such as time travel. The purpose of magic is to apparently bend the laws of physics, so this is probably related to the limitations of time travel: something I intend to discuss at length regarding Kang and Doom in FF 272 when the thread gets that far. You're doing a great job, Slam! If you have to skip a few of the lesser titles like Spider-man, Avengers or the X-Men we won't mind. I love the elegance of the long term story structure: all the biggest elements in the history of Doom, from Kang to Valeria, are foreshadowed in his first appearance. All unintentional, yet it's all there because the story follows its own natural path. Sue's value to the team
I am always amazed that people think Sue is a weak character. She is by far the strongest, when measured by results. We just covered issue 5, so let's look at their arch enemy, Doctor Doom: FF5 - beaten by Sue. FF6 - beaten by Namor (friend of Sue). FF10 - beaten by Johnny and Ben. FF16 - beaten by Sue, showing she can be smarter than Reed (to escape the trap), and later beats Doom. FF17 - the best one of all: the boys stand around like idiots while Sue runs off, rescues Alicia, finds Doom, defeats him, and they don't even realise she's gone! etc., etc. Sue's policy of acting as bait in order to get inside the enemy fortress is incredibly brave, as she alone of the four is virtually powerless: all the main enemies (Mole Man, Namor, Doom, etc.) have radar sense or equivalent. She then has by far the highest success count. Yet people think of Sue as someone who just faints. (I encourage people to count the fainting: Reed and Ben both faint more than she does). Susan Storm is a woman nobody sees. She should be called "the invisible..." oh, wait. Atlantis as a metaphor for Cuba :How could Namor swim from "his land" to New York in just "minutes"? We are told that he swam as fast as a torpedo. Wikipedia says the fastest torpedos exceed 100 mph. Namor is of course super-powered like The Thing, so that much energy is possible. His time was measured in "minutes" not hours, so has an upper limits of just under an hour. This means he could swim up to 100 miles. As Namor had a history of interacting with the surface world it is likely that his empire built an outpost near to New York. At the start of World War II Namor had been an enemy of the United States: "In his first appearances Namor was an enemy of the United States. [...] in 1940 Namor threatened to sink the island of Manhattan underneath a tidal wave." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namor ). During the war Namor became an ally, a parallel with Russia: an ideological enemy of the west who nevertheless joined with America and Britain against the Nazis. After the war, when Namor disappeared, Atlantis would be considered a danger again. Given their advanced technology an outpost so near to New York would be even worse than having communist Cuba close to Florida. Therefore, far from being an accident as Namor assumed (as he recalls, being an ally of the west before he lost his memory), destroying his outpost was almost certainly deliberate. The bomb used would be the smallest convenient one, so as not to endanger American shipping, but to act as a warning. The main Atlantean headquarters would of course be far away and America did not want to start a war. This all explains why Namor acted exactly like Kruschev in FF annual 1: his New York outpost was a parallel for Cuba. Attacking it was a foreshadowing of the Bay of Pigs invasion attempt. There's plenty more where that came from. I thought my previous examination of those issues caught the main points, but it turns out I barely scratched the surface. Please keep those criticisms coming!
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