|
|
Post by earl on Mar 20, 2015 15:59:37 GMT -5
Is that issue the only time Gene Colan drew Spider-man?
|
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 20, 2015 16:10:35 GMT -5
Is that issue the only time Gene Colan drew Spider-man? No, he also drew DD #27. |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 20, 2015 16:12:01 GMT -5
Is that issue the only time Gene Colan drew Spider-man? "The Dean" pencils Marvel Team-Up #87 (1979), with Frank Springer inks. There are likely others. |
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Mar 20, 2015 16:19:19 GMT -5
Is that issue the only time Gene Colan drew Spider-man? I was thinking he must have drawn Spider-Man more times than that. Off the top of my head, I'm sure he was in an issue of DD around #26 for a few panels.
And I checked the Comic Book Database and I came across Marvel Team-Up #87, with Spider-Man and Black Panther, art attributed to Colan and Frank Springer. I was still buying MTU rather sporadically by that point so I might have read it back then but I sure don't remember it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 20, 2015 16:30:42 GMT -5
Is that issue the only time Gene Colan drew Spider-man? I was still buying MTU rather sporadically by that point so I might have read it back then but I sure don't remember it.
It's quite forgettable, really.  |
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 20, 2015 19:25:55 GMT -5
Is that issue the only time Gene Colan drew Spider-man? I was thinking he must have drawn Spider-Man more times than that. Off the top of my head, I'm sure he was in an issue of DD around #26 for a few panels.
And I checked the Comic Book Database and I came across Marvel Team-Up #87, with Spider-Man and Black Panther, art attributed to Colan and Frank Springer. I was still buying MTU rather sporadically by that point so I might have read it back then but I sure don't remember it.
That was a damned dirty trick. You know how rarely I get to show off my encyclopediac knowledge of Team-Up Books. NO BEATING ME TO A DISCUSSION OF MARVEL TEAM-UP IN MY OWN THREAD THAT IS THE RULE!
(Agreed, though, it wasn't that great. Certainly not on par with the OTHER Spidey/Panther MTU issue, which is the greatest work of art known to man.)
Colan also drew Spider-man in Captain America # 137.
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 20, 2015 19:55:50 GMT -5
That was a damned dirty trick. You know how rarely I get to show off my encyclopediac knowledge of Team-Up Books. NO BEATING ME TO A DISCUSSION OF MARVEL TEAM-UP IN MY OWN THREAD THAT IS THE RULE! Some Silver-Age enthusiasts have cited Marvel Team-Up as the point where Spider-Man "jumps the rails" and sacrifices a good bit of what makes him unique in order to fully integrate into the MU. I strongly disagree, partly because I was the target audience for MTU, but also because Spider-Man had by then established himself as a top-tier character who deserved to be showcased alongside Marvel's Old Guard, as well as its up and comers. Far from diminishing the character, I felt MTU enhanced and expanded Spider-Man's prestige within the greater cosmology. Trust me, as a grade-schooler at the time, they could not publish enough Spider-Man material to satiate us. It was a phenomenon. We watched the '67 cartoon in syndication, his appearances on The Electric Company, the short-lived live-action series, and PPTSS. Any other character would have flamed out from over-exposure. It was a true golden age. |
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 21, 2015 5:59:43 GMT -5
Perhaps a partial answer is that so much of what makes Spider-Man great during this period is his milieu, the stresses that plague Peter Parker, and his supporting cast. Lifted out of this rich environment, the character loses certain qualities that are integral to him. Some Silver-Age enthusiasts have cited Marvel Team-Up as the point where Spider-Man "jumps the rails" and sacrifices a good bit of what makes him unique in order to fully integrate into the MU. I strongly disagree […] Far from diminishing the character, I felt MTU enhanced and expanded Spider-Man's prestige within the greater cosmology. I've bolded the parts of your posts, I have trouble reconciling. I can see, how some may consider "Spider-Man's prestige" being augmented, by his interaction with other characters in the MU, but that would also hold true, for all of his other guest appearances. The thing is, they also took Spider-Man out of his "environment", "diminishing the character". |
|
|
|
Post by marvelmaniac on Mar 21, 2015 8:12:52 GMT -5
I am on my "soapbox".
Obviously you are looking at this from an adult/modern storyline standpoint and not through the eyes of an innocent kid of the 60's.
When I started reading/collecting Marvel as a kid back in 64/65 crossovers were rare and to me when a character crossed over to another book it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
When we went to the local supermarket/pharmacy/7-11 and I saw the new issues had arrived and saw a crossover, excitement overflowed and I had to have that issue immediately before it was gone.
As a 9-10 year old kid in the 60's the story was not as important as the characters involved or the Great Cover that got you so excited you had to have that issue.
The reason I am still collecting today is to get back the Memories and the Excitement that I remember having as a kid, it had/has nothing to do with who penciled or inked or wrote the book or how good or bad the storyline was, as a kid back in the 60's you did not care about that.
It was the simple/innocent early storylines that I loved, I actually started losing interest when the books started getting too serious.
It is a shame but IMO kids today have lost their innocence and the ability to be excited about small things like a comic book cover.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 21, 2015 9:16:21 GMT -5
I don't know if I was innocent, when I was the age you mention, but at the end of the 70's, I was collecting ASM (we were around the end of the Lee era, in Spain), PPSM (early issues) and MTU (right after Byrne). I can't honestly say how much I valued each at the time, but I can tell you with certainty, that I cared about ASM, to the point of spending extra money in bookbinding them. I followed PPSS until it was discontinued, and actually missed it when gone. As for MTU, I bought it sparingly, and can't say for sure which issues I bought then, or many years later.
All this to say that, at least in my case, some material had a much bigger impact, than the other.
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 21, 2015 11:47:11 GMT -5
I've bolded the parts of your posts, I have trouble reconciling. I can see, how some may consider "Spider-Man's prestige" being augmented, by his interaction with other characters in the MU, but that would also hold true, for all of his other guest appearances. The thing is, they also took Spider-Man out of his "environment", "diminishing the character". By the time of MTU, we are well past the Lee/Ditko/Romita eras and beyond the point where we can still define Spider-Man as a purely street-level hero. The writing was on the wall perhaps as early as ASM Annual #2, where Spider-Man has his first truly cosmic adventure. By the end of the Lee/Romita era, the creep of the larger MU had begun in earnest in Amazing Spider-Man. More and more guest stars were appearing (Quicksilver, Black Widow, Medusa) and Spider-Man was now routinely travelling to remote locations (London, the Everglades, the Savage Land). The second season of The '67 cartoon, while not canon, is still prescient. Here Spider-Man travels through space, time, and other dimensions to confront a series of weird, alien menaces. It was an indication of where things were headed, as Spider-Man's incredible popularity going into the 1970s meant that he could no longer be constrained to grounded, urban tales within a single title. MTU was simply the next logical step in an already accelerating process begun in Amazing Spider-Man. |
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 21, 2015 12:56:37 GMT -5
I've bolded the parts of your posts, I have trouble reconciling. I can see, how some may consider "Spider-Man's prestige" being augmented, by his interaction with other characters in the MU, but that would also hold true, for all of his other guest appearances. The thing is, they also took Spider-Man out of his "environment", "diminishing the character". By the time of MTU, we are well past the Lee/Ditko/Romita eras and beyond the point where we can still define Spider-Man as a purely street-level hero. The writing was on the wall perhaps as early as ASM Annual #2, where Spider-Man has his first truly cosmic adventure. By the end of the Lee/Romita era, the creep of the larger MU had begun in earnest in Amazing Spider-Man. More and more guest stars were appearing (Quicksilver, Black Widow, Medusa) and Spider-Man was now routinely travelling to remote locations (London, the Everglades, the Savage Land). The second season of The '67 cartoon, while not canon, is still prescient. Here Spider-Man travels through space, time, and other dimensions to confront a series of weird, alien menaces. It was an indication of where things were headed, as Spider-Man's incredible popularity going into the 1970s meant that he could no longer be constrained to grounded, urban tales within a single title. MTU was simply the next logical step in an already accelerating process begun in Amazing Spider-Man. I don't know what you mean by "the time of MTU", but when the series started, Lee and Romita were still in charge of ASM. You must mean later on. As for Spider-Man being a " purely street-level hero", he was only that for one issue, AF #15. In ASM #1 he was already meeting the FF and riding space capsules. I guess you mean that, he was mainly a street-level hero, which he no longer was by the mid to late 70's. I can't agree with it. Regardless of that, his "environment", as you described it ("the stresses that plague Peter Parker, and his supporting cast"), remained consistent for many years. MTU wasn't merely about meeting other heroes, it was about focusing on the costume and neglecting his "environment". I thought you understood that, when you made your first post. Then you tried to defend MTU, by rendering your own argument useless, which makes me think otherwise. This latest attempt, at reconciling both posts, seems to fail at that. The way I see it, it doesn't even stand, on its own legs. Please tell me what I'm missing. I won't even consider the cartoon, which I watched as a kid, because even then, it was clear to me that it was something unrelated. |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 21, 2015 13:48:55 GMT -5
I don't know what you mean by "the time of MTU", but when the series started, Lee and Romita were still in charge of ASM. You must mean later on. March of '72 sees MTU #1. Lee and Romita had returned to ASM for a brief stint at this point, but the writing and art chores had been handled by others for a number of issues during the preceding 2 years, namely Roy Thomas and Gil Kane. By August of '72, Gerry Conway would begin his extended tenure on the title.I don't think you're missing anything. I originally stated that I disagree that MTU was the point where Spider-Man "goes off the rails." I distinguish MTU from those early Silver-Age Spider-Man cross-overs because they occurred at a time when Spider-Man worked perfectly well on his own with his unique cast and setting in the main title. One could ignore his appearances outside ASM and miss nothing. The cross-overs in general are clumsy and, as Cei-U pointed out, rendered in general by artists who didn't "get" the character. The push to integrate Spider-Man into the MU and take him outside his familiar setting begins in ASM, not MTU. By 1972, that is clearly the direction Marvel wanted to go with Spider-Man, so the Team-Up book is now appropriate. The genie is out of the bottle. Fair enough, but it was surely a sign of things to come (see MTIO Annual #2.)  |
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 21, 2015 15:31:42 GMT -5
March of '72 sees MTU #1. Lee and Romita had returned to ASM for a brief stint at this point, but the writing and art chores had been handled by others for a number of issues during the preceding 2 years, namely Roy Thomas and Gil Kane. By August of '72, Gerry Conway would begin his extended tenure on the title. I distinguish MTU from those early Silver-Age Spider-Man cross-overs because they occurred at a time when Spider-Man worked perfectly well on his own with his unique cast and setting in the main title. […] The push to integrate Spider-Man into the MU and take him outside his familiar setting begins in ASM, not MTU. By 1972, that is clearly the direction Marvel wanted to go with Spider-Man, so the Team-Up book is now appropriate. The genie is out of the bottle. I'm well aware of that, but the point is they weren't "well past the Lee/Ditko/Romita eras" by then, because two of them weren't done yet. This is a point, we were already in disagreement upon. Integration of characters in the MU, was fundamental from day one, I don't see anything new by 1972. The only thing that apparently had changed by then, is that the popularity of the character, had raised to the required level, to grant him a second book. Spider-Man could still have continued working "perfectly well on his own with his unique cast and setting in the main title", but Marvel wanted to promote other heroes, at his expense. |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 21, 2015 16:09:27 GMT -5
I'm well aware of that, but the point is they weren't "well past the Lee/Ditko/Romita eras" by then, because two of them weren't done yet. This is a point, we were already in disagreement upon. Integration of characters in the MU, was fundamental from day one, I don't see anything new by 1972. The only thing that apparently had changed by then, is that the popularity of the character, had raised to the required level, to grant him a second book. Spider-Man could still have continued working "perfectly well on his own with his unique cast and setting in the main title", but Marvel wanted to promote other heroes, at his expense. Yes, I think I can come around to your way of thinking about it. I could have been happy with a less popular Spider-Man existing in his own little corner of the MU with occasional forays with the Avengers, FF and such. I suppose in that regard the character is diminished somewhat as a result of hosting a team-up book each month, and further still by appearing in the polarizing "Spidey Super Stories." I still love MTU, perhaps wrongly, but it hit me where I lived when I was just a kid and it's now in my DNA. I accept that my argument is imperfect and I apologize for frustrating you. Let's agree to disagree and try to find more common ground. |
|
