Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 27, 2018 6:26:43 GMT -5
I have a totally different take on Lando than you guys it seems! With Han, it was clear he sympathizes with the rebels from the beginning, despite the fact the he claims he doesn't.. he's trying to protect his self-image. The fact that Lando was in charge of Bespin is EXACTLY why I don't think he's a rebel until he has to be. He IS the establishment... EdoBosnar's description is fantastic... I felt he was acting like a memory he'd rather forget re-surfaced and he was making the best of it. Don't misunderstand me, I agree that Lando wasn't a Rebel when we first meet him. He may've had some Rebel sympathies, as the "Dreams of Cody Sunn-Child" story suggests, but, as Han points out, he had no love of the Empire either. So, it's certainly possible that he had some Rebel leanings. However, when we first meet him, Lando is simply being a pragmatist and a business man with responsibilities. That's why he agrees to the deal with Darth Vader. However, it's very clear that Lando feels guilt over betraying his old friend...especially in light of what eventually happened. Although I enjoyed EdoBosnar's description of Lando as "the successful mayor of a big city with lots of adult responsibilities, who now has to deal with some old (loser) acquaintance of his, living in a van he used to own", I think that's overly simplistic. Lando wasn't just dealing with "loser" Han, he was having to deal with the fact that his establishment was being overrun by an Empire that he disliked anyway, and that the deal he had reluctantly agreed to -- in order to keep Cloud City free of Imperial interference -- was being changed without his agreement. As I said earlier, Lando had several reasons for throwing his lot in with the Rebellion: he felt guilty about handing his old friend over to Vader and Boba Fett, the Empire had ruined his extremely profitable mining operation on Cloud City, and he is, after all, ultimately a hero, so he chose to do the right thing. I look at it this way, if Vader didn't decided to flex his muscles just because he could, Lando would have been fine with Han in Fett's hands and Leia and Chewey under house arrest, as the original deal was. No, that's not right. The original deal (as Lando understood it) was that Lando would help Vader trap Han to use him as bait for "somebody called Skywalker", who Lando didn't even know. There was never any mention of giving Han to a bounty hunter or putting him in carbon freeze. Neither was there any mention of Leia and Chewbacca having to remain on Cloud City under house arrest. The original terms of the deal were made explicit in the scene where Lando confronts Vader, just after we see Han being tortured, and later when Lando comes into the detention cell and Han takes a swing at him. I was actually surprised when He was still around in RotJ the first time. Really? When we last see Lando in Empire he's off to search for Han, and has already arranged to meet Luke, Leia and the others at the rendezvous point on Tatooine. So, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Lando would appear in ROTJ, if only to rescue Han from Jabba's clutches. The other thing to note is that one of the strengths of the Marvel SW comic was that it fleshed out characters like Lando and made them much more an essential part of the central cast than might otherwise have been the case. Same goes for the likes of General Dodonna or Lobot or Biggs Darklighter. With Lando, if you weren't reading the comic, he was just a character who had only been on screen for, like, the last 30 minutes of The Empire Strikes Back. But if you were reading the comic, Lando was a firmly established and fleshed out member of the cast by the time Return of the Jedi came out. Then there's Bespin.. what happened to it when he ran? Did the Empire just take it over? (I feel like it was in an EU story somewhere, but I don't recall the specifics). Lando went back to Cloud City later on in the Marvel run: issues #56 and #57, "Coffin in the Clouds" and "Hello, Bespin, Good-bye!" This is actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about above: the Marvel comic was able to flesh our locations and characters, as well as address lingering questions, in a way that the actual SW movies, with their running time of roughly 2 hours, neither had the time or inclination to do. I thought Infantino actually did really well with the SDs here, which was why the fail on the blockade runner was so jarring . The Star Destroyers were redrawn by Tom Palmer when he was inking Infantino's pencils: that's why they look so good. The comic's new editor, Lousie Jones (later Louise Simonson, after she married Walt), who had come on board with issue #45 "Death Probe", wanted the art in the SW comic to more accurately reflect the technology and characters seen in the films than it had done previously. She thought that readers would appreciate that, and I, for one, certainly did. So, in these two issues you've just read, she had the inkers (Gene Day and Tom Palmer respectively) redraw some of Infantino's art, and that's why it looks so much more authentic than his pre- Empire artwork.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 27, 2018 6:42:17 GMT -5
...Lando initially made a big show of being antagonistic at first . " why you slimy , no good ,double crossing swindler , you got a lot of nerve coming here ." I think this was his attempt to cue Han in that something was amiss. Good theory. I hadn't thought of that, but I like it. And as you will see in upcoming issues of this series you are reading , there is a little lingering resentment towards Lando from Leia and Co. at first... There's actually lingering distrust and resentment towards Lando on Chewbacca's part in "The Dreams of Cody Sunn-Child". When Lando and the Wookiee first land in Cody's realm, Calrissian's initial thought is how he can con the residents of the city and turn a profit. Chewie is quick to gruffly remind Calrissian that their first priority is in rescuing Han and it's clear that the Wookiee is still wary of Calrissian's intentions. also , regarding Luke still having his Lightsaber ,I read a pretty good retcon years ago and I wish I could remember where , but it proposed that Luke kept the lightsaber of Orman Tagge when he defeated him in their saber duel and used that as a backup . This works for my head canon. Not a bad theory, but one glaring problem with it that I see is that Baron Orman Tagge's lightsaber had a red blade, like Darth Vader's, where as Luke is shown using a blue/white bladed saber in the post- Empire issues.
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Post by aquagoat on Dec 27, 2018 13:32:05 GMT -5
Luke tells Han to do it 'quietly' - he doesn't trust Han to do it properly, and Han says, 'Hey - it's me!' and it's comic relief. Luke and Leia's look is one of not trusting Han to do it properly You have a gross misunderstanding of the character. In every film, Han has a certain amount of skill, and that has made him overconfident. Luke and Leia's reaction is an acknowledgement of that between themselves, and for the benefit of the audience who would instantly understand. What?? What films were you watching? In all 3 OT movies, Luke is the far and away hero with the most important/memorable heroic moments. By the end of TESB--a film where he singlehandedly destroyed a AT-AT, and faced the greatest evil in the galaxy, he tops it off with a classic hero's reaction in allowing himself to fall to what he believed would be his death, instead of selling his soul to the dark side. The reason Luke is such a well-loved character is that he's the consummate, classic learning hero throughout. There's never any doubt who the greatest hero is, even when his companions have their own heroic journeys. I gave you an example (the Ewok net) of all characters---with the exception of Leia--being comic relief in ROTJ, thus there's no focus on Han. But above all others, C-3PO is the center of comic relief of the film with his dialogue at Jabba's palace (always afraid), R2 butting him off of the Sail Barge, and his fear and bumbling on Endor. That's not comic relief. Han always found a reason to be annoyed with 3-PO usually justified), and Luke's reaction is--once again--an acknowledgement of what he and the audience have come to know, or expect. I don't want to continue this argument, but yours is an an example of how people go to quite silly lengths to defend their position. Obviously you're a fan of Han Solo and don't want him to be comic relief, but I'm afraid he is that in Return of the Jedi.
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Post by screamsinthevoid on Dec 27, 2018 19:07:42 GMT -5
I am sticking with the theory that Luke has Orman Tagge's lightsaber . my reasoning is along the lines of an earlier poster , though he had a different context . Luke's saber in the pre -ESB issues was often colored incorrectly ( and sometimes even red ) so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think the same would apply to Orman Tagge . I wouldn't call it glaring . Plus , I like this idea as it can still fit in with Shadows Of The Empire and the radio drama . I would slot shadows in just after the Water Bandits and just before The Search Begins issues of the Marvel Comic . And yes , Chewie did have a little lingering resentment towards Lando as early as The Dreams Of Cody Sunn-Childe , been a while since I read that issue , will have to pull out and read through all of my Dark Horse A Long Time Ago 7 volume set again soon !
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 27, 2018 21:42:21 GMT -5
I am sticking with the theory that Luke has Orman Tagge's lightsaber . my reasoning is along the lines of an earlier poster , though he had a different context . Luke's saber in the pre -ESB issues was often colored incorrectly ( and sometimes even red ) so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think the same would apply to Orman Tagge. Yeah, fair point, I guess.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 27, 2018 22:39:03 GMT -5
I think it was MUCH later (in fact, fairly recently) but they've recently stated that red light sabers are created when the now semi-sentient crystals are 'killed'. Or something. That wasn't the rule then, but red=evil is pretty consistent symbology, so they wouldn't want Luke to have a red one.. so it makes sense Tagge had a red one.
Back to Lando, it would be totally reasonable he'd be mad enough at Han to sell him out.. he hadn't seem him in years, and he LED the Empire to Bespin. There's no reason to think the Empire would have any interest at all if Vader wasn't chasing the rebels.
You're right, of course, the the ORIGINAL original deal was Han was just bait... but Lando still seemed fine when Vader told him he was turning Han over. He didn't switch sides and help Leia and Chewie escape until Vader announced he was leaving a garrison behind. Would he perhaps still helped without that last 'alteration' of the agreement? Perhaps, but I wouldn't say so for sure.
In hindsight, it's easy to make sense of what you're saying... but 7 year old me watching ESB for the 1st time before going to RoTJ in the theatre absolutely considered Lando a bad guy and was surprised he was even in the 3rd movie... let alone as an important rebel... I guess part of that never left me.
With Aquagoat talking about Han as comic relief... I don't think that's right.. I think Han was struggling to find his role in RoTJ. He was still trying to convince himself he was a 'scoundrel' in ESB before he got frozen, and while I think he was always on board with the cause, there's certainly an argument to be made he only stuck around for Leia. After he got rescued, he clearly was in for the duration, as he now owed them his life. Lando was flying the Falcon and was seemingly occupying his 'spot'... so his volunteering to be the ground general for the attack on Yavin kinda makes sense... as does the fact he wasn't very good at it, since he's clearly a pilot, not a general.
The EU (and even the new Disney version) continues this after the movies... he's constantly torn between love of family and wanting to devote to the cause and his wanderlust and his 'scoundrel' roots.
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Post by screamsinthevoid on Dec 27, 2018 23:10:34 GMT -5
You're right, o but Lando still seemed fine when Vader told him he was turning Han over. He didn't switch sides and help Leia and Chewie escape until Vader announced he was leaving a garrison behind. Would he perhaps still helped without that last 'alteration' of the agreement? Perhaps, but I wouldn't say so for sure. In hindsight, it's easy to make sense of what you're saying... but 7 year old me watching ESB for the 1st time before going to RoTJ in the theatre absolutely considered Lando a bad guy and was surprised he was even in the 3rd movie... let alone as an important rebel... I guess part of that never left me.
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Post by screamsinthevoid on Dec 27, 2018 23:14:13 GMT -5
-gotta disagree again about Lando seeming fine when Vader told him he was handing Han over . In the scene in the hall after Vader tortures Han ,Lando vehemently disagrees with giving Han and says , " that was never a condition of our agreement nor was giving Han to this bounty hunter . Vader threatens him with " being treated unfairly " and Lando backs down out of fear of being killed . Lando is a gambler and knows the odds are not in his favor and the deck gets stacked against him more and more until he has no choice . and you were not the only kid who saw him as a bad guy back in the day though , Billie Dee Williams has said in interviews that he got booed sometimes dropping his daughter off to school . It's unfortunate that people only chose to focus on his betrayal and not his redemption . Especially for the fact that he was the first actor of color in a Star Wars film . and this was 1980 ..it's nearly 2019 and some people are still up in arms about a more and more diverse cast in Star Wars . For f***s sake , can't we evolve past this s**t as a species ? we're circling the drain man .....but I do agree that Han was not comedy relief in Return Of The Jedi , he had an arc , I just wish they had given him more to do . I think the deleted shootout in the Endor Bunker staying in the film could have helped .
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 28, 2018 3:54:02 GMT -5
I don't want to continue this argument, but yours is an an example of how people go to quite silly lengths to defend their position. Obviously you're a fan of Han Solo and don't want him to be comic relief, but I'm afraid he is that in Return of the Jedi. On the contrary, it is still you who has a gross misunderstanding of the Han Solo character, his development and role in ROTJ, and how most of the heroes were played for a laugh in the Ewok scene, including the series' leading hero.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 28, 2018 4:28:49 GMT -5
-gotta disagree again about Lando seeming fine when Vader told him he was handing Han over . In the scene in the hall after Vader tortures Han ,Lando vehemently disagrees with giving Han and says , " that was never a condition of our agreement nor was giving Han to this bounty hunter . Vader threatens him with " being treated unfairly " and Lando backs down out of fear of being killed . Lando is a gambler and knows the odds are not in his favor and the deck gets stacked against him more and more until he has no choice Yes it is clear Lando took no joy from what was a hostile takeover from the controlling government and living face of its power. Seeing TESB back when it premiered in 1980, I saw Lando's plight for what it was and thankfully, did not know too many kids who blindly painted him as some sort of villain. Looking back, I wonder if those "Lando is a bad guy" kids were basing opinions on equally wrongheaded adults who saw the film before they did, and as a result, bought into the mischaracterization...or were they actually in another theatre watching Battle Beyond the Stars instead of TESB, and still dreamed up the anti-Lando stuff, because it was not based on anything presented in the film.
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Post by screamsinthevoid on Dec 28, 2018 8:44:33 GMT -5
I think you are spot on about some wrongheaded adults influencing kids Tarkantino , I saw it myself in the area where I grew up as there were and still are some bigoted people there . Some of the more enlightened kids wore Lando t shirts at my elementary school in 1980 . Hell , the toy commercials even portrayed the character in a more or less positive light ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM1JgiHmC4A
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Post by Confessor on Dec 28, 2018 9:52:35 GMT -5
Lando being black was never a problem here in the UK, and neither was the casting of John Boyega in The Force Awakens. But then, the UK doesn't have anywhere near as big a problem with rascism as the U.S. does. I mean, we do have our racial problems, for sure, but by and large, most British people are pretty tolerant of multiculturalism, as a rule of thumb. As for Lando's betrayal/redemption arc in Empire, that was understood perfectly by every kid I knew at the time. I mean, even if you misunderstood the film, the various pieces of post-ESB marketing and merchandising firmly positioned Lando as one of the good guys. Back to Lando, it would be totally reasonable he'd be mad enough at Han to sell him out.. he hadn't seem him in years, and he LED the Empire to Bespin. There's no reason to think the Empire would have any interest at all if Vader wasn't chasing the rebels. You're right, of course, the the ORIGINAL original deal was Han was just bait... but Lando still seemed fine when Vader told him he was turning Han over. He didn't switch sides and help Leia and Chewie escape until Vader announced he was leaving a garrison behind. Sorry to be a pedant about this wildfire, but again, that's not quite right. As screamsinthevoid rightly points out, Lando started to get annoyed when he realised Vader was turning Han over to Boba Fett; that was the first change to the deal and Lando definitely did not seem fine with it...and he told Vader so in a raised, angry voice. Also, the reason that Lando co-operated with Vader and the Empire in the first place was not because he was angry with Han for leading the Empire to Bespin, it was because once the Empire had arrived (something we can assume Lando was not happy with), he naively believed that he could strike a deal to protect Cloud City and shield it from Imperial scrutiny in the future. He says so in the dining room scene, where Vader first confronts Han, Leia and Chewie: "I've just made a deal that will keep the Empire out of here forever." With Aquagoat talking about Han as comic relief... I don't think that's right.. I think Han was struggling to find his role in RoTJ. He was still trying to convince himself he was a 'scoundrel' in ESB before he got frozen, and while I think he was always on board with the cause, there's certainly an argument to be made he only stuck around for Leia. After he got rescued, he clearly was in for the duration, as he now owed them his life. No, I don't agree with aquagoat's assertion that Han was nothing more than comic relief in ROTJ either. That's a very unusual and, as far as I'm concerned, inaccurate reading of the character's arc in the film. But to each their own, I guess.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 28, 2018 22:11:16 GMT -5
Sorry to be a pedant about this wildfire, but again, that's not quite right. As screamsinthevoid rightly points out, Lando started to get annoyed when he realised Vader was turning Han over to Boba Fett; that was the first change to the deal and Lando definitely did not seem fine with it...and he told Vader so in a raised, angry voice. Also, the reason that Lando co-operated with Vader and the Empire in the first place was not because he was angry with Han for leading the Empire to Bespin, it was because once the Empire had arrived (something we can assume Lando was not happy with), he naively believed that he could strike a deal to protect Cloud City and shield it from Imperial scrutiny in the future. He says so in the dining room scene, where Vader first confronts Han, Leia and Chewie: "I've just made a deal that will keep the Empire out of here forever." Complaining a bit isn't the same as actively opposing, you know? If he was really a rebel at heart all along, he never would have agreed in the first place, because he would have known they'd never stay away. I always thought any sort of worrying about race made no sense.. Star Wars is a galaxy far, far away.. there's no reason the people couldn't be blue, pink or purple (well, there are practical reasons I suppose).. I never got why people were upset. I mean, sure, the Empire is mostly portrayed by white men in the original trilogy, but I thought that was simply because they were mostly British actors, I didn't take it as any sort of commentary or insight on race.
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Post by Confessor on Dec 29, 2018 9:14:19 GMT -5
Complaining a bit isn't the same as actively opposing, you know? Well, no...but it's clear that Lando was pretty unhappy with the deal being altered. He was angry and confronted Vader with his dissatisfaction. He only backed down because he knew that Vader would kill him. But you said, "Lando still seemed fine when Vader told him he was turning Han over" and that's blatantly not true. He's angry and pissed off about it. If he was really a rebel at heart all along, he never would have agreed in the first place, because he would have known they'd never stay away. Also, as I said before, I'm not saying that Lando was a Rebel when we first meet him. Yes, it's possible that he may've had some Rebel sympathies, as the "Dreams of Cody Sunn-Child" story suggests, or maybe he didn't. But, as Han points out, he had no love of the Empire either. I always thought any sort of worrying about race made no sense.. Star Wars is a galaxy far, far away.. there's no reason the people couldn't be blue, pink or purple (well, there are practical reasons I suppose).. I never got why people were upset. I mean, sure, the Empire is mostly portrayed by white men in the original trilogy, but I thought that was simply because they were mostly British actors, I didn't take it as any sort of commentary or insight on race. I think that some EU writers in the 90s proposed the idea that the Empire was intrinsically a racist (speciesist??) organization and would only recruit humans. But like you say, I think that was more a case of most of the Imperials in the original trilogy being played by male British actors.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 29, 2018 20:48:08 GMT -5
There was definitely some stuff in the EU that the Empire was all 'human', and didn't like 'aliens'.... though, again, to me, that doesn't make sense, since there are no humans as such.
I know for sure Zahn talked about it in the Thrawn books, using him as the exception that proves the rule, as it were. They definitely talked about his genius overcoming the inherent prejudice of the Empire.
While I love those books, I always kinda thought the Empire was evil enough without tossing racism in the mix TOO, but whatever.
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